Daniel Rock: 0:05

Hello. And on this episode of wherever I lay my hat, we have Shabana Coelho, a writer, performance artist, and traveler born in India. Her journey began when she left New York city in 2006, after feeling done with city life. I went to Tierra del Fuego in Argentina, and from there to Bolivia, Peru, and Mexico. Before she embarked on the big adventure of Mongolia, where she spent a year and a half on a full bright research grant to record the sounds and stories of nomadic communities. She wrote about that experience in her essay that was later selected to the best women's travel writing. And I will make sure I include a link to that writing in our show notes. Um, and she now resides in New Mexico near the indigenous community of the Zuni, where she facilitates a creative writing class called imagine fantastic futures. I'm really excited to have you as a guest Shabana, and I'd love to hear more about your journey and kind of how you ended up. In all of those places and where you are now. So if you would, wouldn't mind taking us through that. I'd love that.

Shebana: 1:00

Thanks, Daniel. Thanks for having me on. I, I love the, uh, title too of your, it resonates of your podcast about laying your, wherever I lay my hat. Okay. Thanks.

Daniel Rock: 1:11

shamelessly borrowed from a Paul Young song. Um, where I lay my hat says a Paul Young song. Um, and I love the song and it resonates for me. So I'd love to say I came up with the name, but very much borrowed. Um,

Shebana: 1:25

Well, it is really a lovely image. It pulls the mind of, of, of journey and wandering and going where, know, wherever you, wherever and making home wherever you are. I, a long time ago, someone, I can't remember, this is a quote. a monk that someone quoted to me about like these different, about your level of comfort, wherever you are, that shows you how you can integrate something like, know, um, I can't remember it now, but it's about, it's about home. I'll find it. I'll find it maybe and I'll email it to you, but it's just about these different levels of, if you can make yourself at home, wherever you are, that says a lot about your capacity to relate to the world in a different way. You know, and, uh, well, I will say that, so I grew up in India, uh, till I was 12, then I moved to the U. S., um, and of, I began my working life in New York City, um, working in documentaries, um, and it became clear, I was 32 or 33, that as much as I enjoyed it, that I wasn't living The life that I wanted, there was something missing. That's the, that was the first big something is missing kind of call. And I thought about what it was, I realized that I really wanted the experience of landscape, like I'd grown up cities or suburbia.

Daniel Rock: 2:53

mhm.

Shebana: 2:53

And I felt, I remember thinking very distinctly, if I die, and that's all I've known is cities and suburbs, I will really regret it.

Daniel Rock: 3:01

Yeah.

Shebana: 3:03

So

Daniel Rock: 3:04

Yeah.

Shebana: 3:27

and like travel. And I couldn't I knew was that I needed to go. And I had Tierra del Fuego in mind because when I was young in India in a geography class, I had seen photos and, uh, this idea of the end of the world. And so it really changed my life. That was like the first big step out of, I was leaving New York and going to Argentine Tierra del Fuego. So I flew to Buenos Aires and then taking this little plane to Ushuaia,

Daniel Rock: 3:58

Yep.

Shebana: 3:59

which is called, um, the, it's the southernmost city. the world. After that, the next stop is Antarctica.

Daniel Rock: 4:07

Yep.

Shebana: 4:08

ships for Antarctica leave from there. That was wild to see them and be there. And like a lot of people in Argentina themselves have moved from the mainland to Tierra del Fuego because it's like a tax free haven at the end of the world.

Daniel Rock: 4:22

Um,

Shebana: 4:40

or something. And I applied for this grant to go to Mongolia, which had also been on my mind since

Daniel Rock: 4:46

Yeah. Yeah. So

Shebana: 5:14

I ended up getting a Fulbright, so I ended up spending more or less a year and a half Mongolia. Both in the city of Ulaanbaatar, where I stayed with the Mongolian family and took intensive Mongolian language classes. And then also I would go out into the countryside, the Yag Khudu, the real, like, Khudu is the countryside and Yag is like real, like,

Daniel Rock: 5:37

that.

Shebana: 5:37

out there.

Daniel Rock: 5:38

That's like the steps, right? That is what, so this, what is referred to as the steps, which is obviously where the Mongols and the Genghis Khan history and all of that, that's that area of the world, correct?

Shebana: 5:50

Yeah, Mongolia is, the word for step is taal. Khuddu actually means countryside. So people, the way you would say, I'm going to the countryside, people would say, I'm going to the, I'm going to the countryside. But the word for the step is taal. The word for the step is taal. So that's where I was. Yeah, my idea was, I had always wanted to have an everyday experience of that immense landscape. And so my project that I came up with was to record the sounds of everyday life in Mongolian communities. I wouldn't really say tribes because it's really communities. And, uh, you mentioned Chinggis Khan in Mongolia. The Khan is said that way, Chinggis. And there's a story about like how he got his name. Oh, there's a mystery about at least the way that I heard it. One is that when Khan unified, he was born Temujin. That was his name. And when he united at that time, all these different clans and fought, he, he named himself like kind of the head, the emperor of them, or I don't know if it was emperor, but, at that moment, a bird Came and made a sound that was Chinggis,

Daniel Rock: 7:09

Wow. I hadn't heard that.

Shebana: 7:12

and then there's another one where there's a word in Mongolian, which I, it's called dingus, which is either ocean or sky. I always get it mixed up and I, I forgot to double check, but in any case, it's like that because as vast as the sky or the ocean, so Chinggis Khan and, um, yeah, so that's where I was. I was in Mongolia for a year and a half and that really changed my life. Which I'm happy to talk more about like, how it changed, how I see the world, because I realized I could live in the same way. Uh, that I traveled, meaning not carrying as much and being open, uh, to kind of step by step unfolding, no pun intended, but step by step unfolding of things. And that's really what led me to where I am now, you know, uh, to New Mexico, coming back to New Mexico. Um, uh, yeah. And, and it really Opened me up to also, I fell into my creativity or, or dove into it or, you know, working in, I see myself as a writer and a performance artist and I've also made films. And I write poetry and I perform solo plays and really traveling, especially in Mongolia, it opened me up to follow all kinds of creative possibilities, and I feel where I am now, it's really beautiful to be. Uh, in New Mexico, again, near this indigenous community is called Zuni or Ashawi, and also I've just been going through a lot of searching about what my next true step is. So an overview

Daniel Rock: 8:57

That's

Shebana: 8:58

uh,

Daniel Rock: 8:59

I'd love to dig in more into a lot of that. I think it's, it's a fascinating story and I think it's for me, what really resonates and the Mongolia thing resonates to me in a couple of ways. Um, I don't know if you've ever seen it. There's a documentary series called a long way round, which is Ewan McGregor and Charlie Borman who'd go around the world the long way around, right. From London to New York, the long way around. And they travel a huge part of that series is their travels for Mongolia. And I think when you look at. You and journey. And I believe that they ended up him and his then wife, um, adopted a Mongolian child off the back of that. Cause he fell so in love with the country and of, I think, and I've really loved to hear from you. One of the perceptions I've get from that and some of the other documentaries I've seen is, Especially amongst the nomadic communities in Mongolia, there's a tie to the land or a tie to that is perhaps not something we kind of appreciate in the West, right? It's almost like it's part of their family or part of their being more so than, you know, Kind of what we see is it is a more transactional piece, though, I think most indigenous communities see land differently to us that may have colonized in those indigenous spaces coming from the British background. So I'd love to hear a little bit more about how spending time. Those nomadic communities kind of changed your perception of home. Obviously, growing up in big cities and I grew up in London. I've lived in Auckland for a long time. They are big concrete communities. monolithic cities. Um, so it's really interesting to hear your perspective of kind of how that changed your perceptions.

Shebana: 10:37

Yeah, I'm glad to share. Um, I just wanted to say, cause you mentioned colonization. I did like the play I do that kind of changed my life. The truest thing is called the good manners of colonized subjects. And it is about the impact of the British colonization and Portuguese colonization of India in a felt body sense, right? What colonization does. And I mentioned it because I feel. Without knowing it, I've been on that journey of understanding what it means to excavate the way that you're colonized. inside your interior landscape. And I think that's one of the reasons land has been calling to me because it's, um, it's a way to be, to really, to be free. I think being in Mongolia, that vastness, all the immense spaces I was in, it shifted how I see the space, my interior sense of spaciousness. Like, cause when you're around, so what I will say about couple of things. Yes. I remember when I was in Mongolia, so this was 2007. Oh, goodness, a long time ago, I was in Mongolia, too. I want to say, I'm totally blanking now, 2007, I want to say. but I remember people talking about Ewan McGregor in Mongolia and saying, Mongolia made him cry. Like, you know, because I think his, his bike, I forget which province he was in now. I want to say, I don't remember now. I don't know. Cause he may have been, I know it was like, I don't think he was in the Western part of Mongolia. I want to say he was somewhere in the interior.

Daniel Rock: 12:17

He was, I think I remember, right. It was very much going right through the middle almost. Um, because he, I know he stopped in Ulaanbaatar, but I don't remember because he was trying to get through to Vladivostok, I believe, to get the, to get the ferry or the boat from Vladivostok to the U S.

Shebana: 12:34

yeah, this, but I remember people saying that Mongolia made him cry because I think his bike broke down. They had like a big breakdown. And I also heard about him adopting Uh, well, you know, what to tell you? Um, I, I went to Mongolia, like I said, Mongolia is changing, this is what I will say. This is what you will read about, like, the amount of, I think, a huge portion of the formerly nomadic community now lives in the city of Ulaanbaatar, one of the issues that happens, because many people move, they move, there's it. There's the city, which looks like, uh, because Mongolia was kind of a Soviet

Daniel Rock: 13:16

Sorry. Yeah. I

Shebana: 13:36

nomadic is changing, is changing, changing every day. And the winter in Mongolia, for example. there's some people had it really hard to breathe because of the smoke from the wood fires off folks who've moved from the countryside to the city in what's called the Gare District, which is like they've set up Gares, the yurts outside on the rims of the city where they live in these communities and burning wood smoke. And so there's a side by side with the refinery that's on the other side of UB. So it's people find it in the winter. Some people can find it really hard, uh, the air quality from all the wood fires. I went to Mongolia for that reason in your mind that you say that like this, I wanted to know what it was like to have a different relationship, an everyday relationship with landscape. And I lived with, uh, uh, in every season I spent in a different part of Mongolia. I got to experience like the calving season in the very, in the province of Hindi, when like with a, with a kind of an extended family that got together in this one place just to be together to tend, Because all the animals were being born and, you know, and to deal with it. And then they would move and I got to move with the family, uh, the spring spots to the summer spot where like, they were like, okay, it's time to move. And we packed up the gear into a truck and drove on the step, the Thal and stopped and pointed. and said, how about the father of the family said, how about we move there? big pile with the river closer to a river. we did move there

Daniel Rock: 15:26

think that's.

Shebana: 15:27

set up the garrigan.

Daniel Rock: 15:28

Yeah, that to me is fascinating, obviously, because I think when you put a western lens on land, it becomes a lot about, about ownership, right? That's my land. So I will build there. I will settle there. I will make that, you know, I think the, the, I'm trying to think of the right word, the kind of myth of the, you know, an Englishman and his castle, you know, which is, you know, in that suburbia piece, you build your little fort and you, that's where you're safe in that. And to have that, I don't know, freedom or relationship with land that says, well, that's now home. You know, you haven't decided upfront that this is where I'm going to, you know, the area you're going to, but actually to say that looks like that could be home, I find that fascinating in terms of it's, it's a completely different relationship with the concept of what home is.

Shebana: 16:21

Yeah, it is. And, uh, it was just like, I don't even have hardly the words for it. I have the, just to, to, to, I remember the, If I was just like the very, my first time, my first season in the landscape in the, like one morning, like early in the morning, you would hear, I was staying in a ger with, uh, with a young family. So like in the ger, there would be family I was staying with, they were called, uh, Jaga is, was, you know, Jaga and Manju, and his wife, or Manjugo and her husband, Jaga, because Manjugo is who I knew, was a friend of a friend of a friend like that. And they had these three kids, so we were in this gair, and then they had a little cot for me, so like in a circle. In the middle of the gair, there is like a, an iron, a stove, where you cook. And in the morning to wake up, because it was, that was the time of sounds of Jaga herding the cattle. And then, uh, the sounds of Manjugo making tea really early in the morning, but it's this tea called su titse, which is more milk. Su is milk. So it's milk with tea. You put a little bit of salt in

Daniel Rock: 17:39

So almost like, and not the same, but like more of a chai type thing than a, like a, an English

Shebana: 17:45

know,

Daniel Rock: 17:46

black tea, you know, that it's very,

Shebana: 17:47

sure. And, and it's somewhere between maybe, because there's hardly any chai in it, you know, it's like really milk and it has salt in it. And, uh, but yeah, it's more in that family than like a black tea. And it's very little The proportion of tea to milk is there's a lot more milk. Um, yeah, I just, while I was there towards the end of my time in Mongolia, I began doing interviews about like what we'll call Gazir is land and Damag is, uh, legend or myth.

Daniel Rock: 18:25

Okay. Okay. Okay.

Shebana: 18:53

also really was, I, in different kinds of landscapes. So, Hinti was like this yellow, yellow treeless steppe. You know, that was my first, then in the summer, I was in the North and Hovsgol, which is green, green and mountainous, just green, grassy green going. I went sheep, I went sheep herding with a young boy named Ulana and I made a little video about it, just going every morning. We would take the goats and the sheep, like a small, like, I don't know, 50, 40, but that experience of like, who go, I mean, of going up and down, In in Hovesgold and then in the autumn I was in the Gobi desert and I stayed with a couple that had a small herd of camels so I herded, I got to, um, work like, you know, be a camel shield, like, it was really interesting the way that the whole process of milking camels. Separating the camels from the calves and, but that experience of the Gobi, I'm saying, which is not like dune y desert, there are dunes that look like sand dunes, but a lot of it is, is this dry kind of brush, you know, it's like, um, there's a, there's like intermittent bushes and it's

Daniel Rock: 20:15

More of a time, if my understanding is, is that it's like kind of almost a cold desert rather than a hot desert. If in that, like I know it can get hot, I'm showing my ignorance here, but my understanding is there's more green to it or brush to it than there is to, it's not a Sahara or a, it must

Shebana: 20:32

not

Daniel Rock: 20:32

be very different.

Shebana: 20:33

yeah, it's. Yeah, it would be like some parts of New Mexico too, in a way, like, wouldn't say the high desert, but it, yeah, it's not like all sandy, there are portions that are that way, but it's not like the Sahara, no, and then the, my last, season, the winter I spent in Bayan Olgi, which is a Kazakh, which is right now on the border of Kazakhstan, that was entirely different to mountainous in a different way, and the food was different, and so, guess what I'm saying, Mongolia did become landscape to me, and like, the everydayness of being out and about in landscape, uh, herding, Herding making sounds, you know, like there were sounds you made, people weren't herding with animals, like with dogs as you might, you made sounds to call camels and sheep and goats and cows, different sounds for different occasions. And, uh, there was a song that was sung to lambs put a lamb that had lost its calf and a calf that had lost its mother to, to, to, to nurse together. And, uh, There was a song that was sung to cement that bond, like you sat and you sang to a you and a calf. A song that's like, like that.

Daniel Rock: 22:10

I, I do think, and it is an interesting, obviously growing up in England, you know, I moved to, I moved, I lived in New Zealand until I was 22, and I think we for the most part, don't have that relationship with the land. We just, it's not seen in that way. And I think my, a lot of that is that, you know, it's an incredibly population dense country. You know, England, you know, or the UK is six, I think I'm probably outta date, but, you know, 62, 60 3 million people. I moved to New Zealand, which at the time is 4 million. It's now 5 million people, but actually has almost exactly the same square land area as the UK does. So actually a lot less. densely populated, but also has its own indigenous population, you know, multi people and what's, and I would never in any way try to come across any kind of expert or knowledgeable in this, but what does come across from the people that I've met and know is that they do have a much more symbolic and deeper relationship with where they live and. Where they're from. And, you know, um, you know, it, it, there's a, the word in Maori called fuck a papa, which is that kind of where you're from your lineage, your history, your genealogy. Um, and I think that that, and a lot of that is tied to place and to home and to location. And I find that. What I find really interesting, um, as I watch documentaries and do stuff is that whilst every indigenous culture is incredibly different, that seems to purvey or, um, wrong word, but that seems prevalent in almost every indigenous culture that there is a tie to land or that is part of their, their soul and their background and their ancestry, which perhaps. Us who have treated, you know, land as a colonizing, you know, as someone from a colonizing country, it's always been seen as very transactional, right? It is, it is property. It is to be owned. It is to be dominated is to be, you know, even in the States now where I live, you know, land is there to provide for you. It is not there to be part of you. And I think I'd love to hear, you know, as you've kind of moved back to States and in New Mexico, And moved amongst an indigenous culture there. Have you seen that similar relationship to land and home amongst the Zuni, um, people, or is it very different to what you experienced in Mongolia?

Shebana: 24:40

Um, and again, I wouldn't want to speak again for Ashvi or Zuni people. I will just speak to what you're saying. I think we're all searching for our reconnecting to this place, to the land we walk on. And I, was a phrase that you just said that I just, that really resonated about. you know, who we are in relationship to land, like searching for that or finding that or wanting to be that, but yes, I will say that the, there is in Zuni, there's a mountain that is sacred and that is on, you'll see when you see the, if go to the Pueblo of Zuni website, that mountain, that mesa is, um, um, um, And I won't say the name of it because I feel it should be said by someone. But you will see a mesa that, that in English is called a corn mountain. And, um, so, um, I do, yeah, I mean, and it's different. See, in New Mexico, kind of native populations, there's nomadic populations that were traditionally nomadic, like the, like the Diné. Uh, say, and the Apache, and then there's what the Spanish, because New Mexico was colonized by the Spanish. It was a colony of Spain. then it became a part of the U. S. and there were, so people, indigenous people in New Mexico have kind of gone through two bouts of colonization, say, the Spanish and then what you would call settler. And certainly so, the, but the, there's 19 what are called pueblos, which would mean places that are rooted here that weren't, that did not, not nomadic. So that connection to land is very, very strong, for sure. Here, stories about the land, mountains named, holy mountains, sacred mountains, mountains you pray to. So yes, that, that, that connection to land, um, I will say, I will agree that I, I think that is maybe one of the reasons that so many of us who are, you know, who didn't grow up in indigenous communities are drawn to them the symbolically, because think there is something we are all seeking about reconnecting. To our, to land, because it's not about providing for us, but it's just like that symbiotic connection. I mean, I think that's what, there is a kind of hunger that sometimes I feel to just be a tree, you know, or, you know, It's like, that's what I want to dance now. I keep saying that. I'm trying to figure out what that means, but I find myself saying that so often that I, I want to more and more dance with trees, under trees, for trees, in supplication to stone and earth and like, and I think it's a symbol, a metaphor a deeper, hunger to simplify and reconnect. And I don't think it takes doing as, I don't think it takes more doing. I think it just takes more being, you know, being, being like, to be like, I can sit here and feel connected to that tree outside, just something like that, you know.

Daniel Rock: 28:10

I think I understand. I think it's one of the things that I've. Doing this podcast has kind of made me think a little bit about, but also just in notice of kind of, you know, my, the, the way that my journey is, is it's very easy to feel lost or not feel like there's a home or, and I think, you know, one of the things I talked about in a, in a previous episode, um, is, you know, people. end ups that people are always searching for connection, searching for connection, searching for belonging. And that can, um, kind of appear in different ways for people. You know, it can be a very positive thing. You know, it can be, you know, I bond with the land. I, you know, I want to dance for trees and I don't say that in a mocking tone. It's like that's a real positive way to feel like you're belonging. You become belonging with nature, you're belonging with the place that you're at. And I think one of the perils of modern life is that we often don't feel present. You know, or we often aren't present. We have a six inch screen, um, three feet from our brains at almost all times. And we're distracted and we don't pay attention. And I can't remember the last time I watched a movie without picking up my phone and scrolling the internet at some point, you know, we're, we're not present. And I think that. that connection to land and nature is a really good way of doing it. And I think that's a really positive manifestation of it. You get negative manifestations, people join gangs, they do things because they want to fit in or be part of things. And I think that what I find really interesting about talking to people is hearing how they manifest that sense of belonging and how it presents them. And You know, I think I've loved the story that you've been telling me about this. I think it's fascinating. And I think you've, you've seen some beautiful things. And one of the things you sort of mentioned in our initial communications is thinking about what's next right for you and where do you go and what's the next stage of life for you. So I'd love to hear a little bit about kind of your thinking and what it is you think you're seeking in terms of home or what you think that next step might look like for you.

Shebana: 30:15

Thank you for asking that. I'm always, not always, but I'm often glad to reflect on that. Um, I think when I think about what's next now, I want to reflect on in really small ways. Like to break into only what makes me happy, but ways I think I use this word a lot to be of service, to be of, I, this keeps coming up a lot for me, this phrase, be of service. And I think that does happen when you get in touch with what really makes you happy. Um, that doesn't mean it's easy. all the things that make you happy are easy journeys. And, um, there is, um, I think it was, uh, there's a Quaker writer named Parker Palmer and wrote a book about, you know, that says something like, before you tell your life you want from it, listen to what it is asking of you.

Daniel Rock: 31:13

Mm hmm. Silence.

Shebana: 31:29

like, I do feel and more at my essence, um, the things that I love to do is I love to create, uh, kind of these plays made of poetry and dance that are about, about colonizations of

Daniel Rock: 31:47

Yep. Yep.

Shebana: 32:12

more, uh, I also love facilitating creativity workshops for people to write poem like things and song like things. I say like things because I think we can be colonized by structures of things too. And especially in indigenous communities and communities of color, there can be a real sense of, if you start saying, Using English to teach something, it can bring out a lot of trauma because for a lot of communities, English, learning English was connected to trauma in some way. And so like, for example, when I was doing this workshop in Zuni called Imagine Fantastic Futures, go out of my way to, like, I don't have any kind of syllabus like thing in the beginning. Like we just really play, because for a lot of people, there is trauma around how they were taught English. Like not being able to, and then also their connection to their own language. So like, it's very, so, I, I'm, I really play try to put English in its place, meaning it's a, it's a language that we use, but it doesn't ennoble you to speak it or not speak it. useful. And in that same way, I would like to put. and money in its place, that is to say they're useful. is literally ways to connect and transact because we've chosen that in the world. Um, but how to, yeah, I do feel this, I feel the next step involves my speaking up in ways that, May not be loud, but are, uh, still a kind of revolution. It's not loud is not necessarily a revolution. So I feel like, um, speaking up with a level of nuance or creating with a level of nuance or creating work that has this kind of nuance that sees,

Daniel Rock: 34:19

It.

Shebana: 34:20

know, the, the sees the, yeah, yeah. I don't, I don't have all the words for it, but it's this, there's a kind of speaking up and being present in a new way.

Daniel Rock: 34:27

Mhm. I think there's, I think there's so much in capture in that, you know, there's that you can speak quietly and have a big impact. I know the Teddy Roosevelt quote is more, you know, speak softly and carry a big stick. But it's not that it is. You can speak quietly and those words can carry meaning and they can carry power. And I really do believe in that. And I think one of the other things that really resonated with me, what you said there is I think one of the things that makes us grow up too quickly and lose some of that wonder and joy is when we put structure around creativity. I think, you know, when you have, if you look at the joy children get from drawing or from playing or putting on shows for their parents in their living rooms, and, and I think there's a wonder to that. Because it's free form and it's using their imagination and it's creativity that I don't think we do that as adults. I think when you start to learn creativity as an adult, whether that's learning art in high school or whether that's, you know,

Shebana: 35:27

Um,

Daniel Rock: 35:51

experiences of what you went through when you used to enjoy something and then someone took the fun out of it. And I think that to me, yes, that's on a minor level, but you make that around a generation or people or, you know, even a race that you do that on scale and you've put that structure on something that people used to have joy in. And I think you look at, You know how people used to tell stories. It wasn't written. It was all oral history. It was all, you know, communicated by poetry, by song, by dance, by, you know, the storytelling. And then also no, no, you've got to write it down. It's got to go in a book. It's got to follow the structure. You need to have the dates and the times. And I think that what you said there about helping people connect to it in the way that you are, I think is incredibly powerful and really meaningful. You know, and I'm really, I really like that.

Shebana: 36:44

I'm still working with it. It's, it's, it's, it is so nuanced, you know, Like, I will, for example, I grew up reading Enid Blyton, who you might know, the British

Daniel Rock: 36:55

writing books growing up, Secret Seven and Famous Five. Yep.

Shebana: 37:17

of Enid Blighton on generations of Indians. And it's like this mixed thing. You, kind of grew up imagining the British countryside, like I grew up like dreaming of the Moors and like, um, you know, Heather and like the first time I saw him. Uh, I mean, I ate a macaroon, I mean, all these things, you know, so, but it's a kind of like, you just were longing for that. I grew up reading Indian stories too, but I feel like I was kind of colonized. It was a different kind of colonization as the British were leaving, all these stories were coming in and they mingled with the ennobling of English that was already in our culture from the British being there for a hundred years. And it kind of created another kind of reality where I grew up thinking that I was better than other Indians who spoke English badly. You know, I, I grew up going to elocution classes things like this, right? And, and, you know, Blighton is real mixed. And I will say, she had a series of books called the Magic Faraway Tree, a group of, uh, these city kids moved to the countryside and in, in, down in the woods, find a tree that is full of, uh, elves and pixies and all kinds of different land that was in the top of the tree. You would climb up a ladder and there was a different land that swung into place and all of this. Now that mix, that mixed with the myths I read, these comic book illustrations of the Ramayana were like my creativity, were like these places of, of deep escape and nourishment for me as a child in a city who wanted, who, who, who for various reasons needed to like live in her imagination. And, and so. It's so nuanced, the ways that, our encounter with each other and other cultures and what we value shape us. And I, I think that to unpack that, it, it requires, you It not requires, but it invites us to be free to explore. And I I'm real proponent of feeling free. I think you do need to like, you know, you do need, it helps to know how to build things. Like if you're going to build a house, you need to know how things work. This is for making things straight and this is for structure. So all the ways that we've. All the structures we've created about how you write this and how you write that are useful again, as long as you put them in your place that they're useful to you, as opposed to they're the only way you can do it. They are of use to you. You choose, this is useful and this is useful. I choose this and I choose that because it's for the thing I want to build, the me that, in the me ness of me, you know.

Daniel Rock: 40:18

I think that's perfect. I think when you look at it that way is it's you. I think the way you said it a couple of times there is they are tools. And tools are there to be used and they can be used in many different ways. You know, you know, a hammer isn't just about hammering nails into a wood board, right? You can use it for a number of ways. You can use it for every carpenter that might listen to this might be yelling at me saying, no, she only use it in a certain way. But, um, I think you've really kind of to not pun somewhat intended hit the nail on the head with that in terms of, you know, these things are useful and. the last sort of note on that, just on something you said around that romanticization of the English countryside, you know, and I think that in that era, that was kind of what we did. And if you look at it now, it's probably the romanticization of Hollywood or California or the beaches, you know, in a media, the way, you know, the way we consume thing portrays things into this, well, this is what it's like, and this is the perfect world. And I need to fit that. And I think. Understanding this freedom and not following that exact path and using your imagination to determine what is really powerful. And I think, you know, what you're doing with teaching creativity and getting outside of that is, is awesome. You know, that awesome is a bit of a cliche word, but there's, there's power in it and I think that's, that's really fascinating. Um, I want to say thank you, um, for being our guest today. I've really, really enjoyed our conversation. Um, really fascinating. And you've got a fantastic story. So thank you so much for coming on. Shabana. I really do appreciate it.

Shebana: 41:53

Thank you. It's been great. I really appreciate this opportunity to kind of reflect deeply on, you know, journey and where we are and where we want to go and how we connect to each other. I think it's, we're all in this together and I think, um, it's, it's wonderful to connect like this.

Daniel Rock: 42:12

Thank you so much. And thank you for listening to this episode of wherever I lay my hat. It's very much appreciated. I love hearing comments from you and the feedback that we get. Again, if you'd like to be part of the show and you've got a story you'd like to tell, please reach out to dan at wherever I lay my hat dot com. And as usual, if you could like subscribe, leave a review, leave a comment that really helps the show grow and gets us more interesting thing. People like Shabana to come on and tell their wonderful stories. So again, thank you so much. And I look forward to seeing you all again soon.