Ayo Haynes, Open Adoption Success Coach: 0:05

Okay.

Daniel Rock: 0:06

Welcome to where I lay my hat, a podcast about home. Um, this week's a little different and I'm excited to

Ayo Haynes, Open Adoption Success Coach: 0:12

Yes,

Daniel Rock: 0:35

thanks for having, thanks for joining us. And I'd love to start with you kind of giving us a little bit of your background and introducing yourself.

Ayo Haynes, Open Adoption Success Coach: 0:43

thank you for having me. So as you said, my name is Ayo Haynes. I'm an open adoption specialist. I. help, uh, women in their forties and fifties become mothers through adoption. Some may have never been mothers before. Some may have had children that are grown and they have decided to adopt again. Um, but it's a wonderful business of helping other people achieve their dreams. And, and you see little miracles happen every single day, almost.

Daniel Rock: 1:16

That's lovely. You know, and I think it is a very worthy thing do. And I think, you know, it's, it's one of those things where there's a lot of people who may not have privilege that some of us have had growing up, you know, in, in that standard nuclear family, which to be fair, and then mine was very privileged, but not everyone's standard nuclear family is actually as privileged as perhaps we make out. Um, I'd love to sort of hear how you came to this and how you came to, on your journey to decide adoption was the right path for you.

Ayo Haynes, Open Adoption Success Coach: 1:43

I'll, I'll start by what you were just talking about. My family was not necessarily what people would call standard. You know, I came from a single mother household. My, they, my parents were married, but my dad was also a jazz musician, so he. He traveled a lot and his career was priority. And so my mother had to make her home with me and with the support of her brothers and sisters, as she put herself through, um, uh, two year college, then onto a four year college all the way to get her, her PhD in divinity. So, um, you know, I come from an interesting, Group of, of a family members who have really made it their goal to help the family within each other, like on one side of the family, the other side of the family was very distant. I didn't have a relationship with them, but I learned my sense of family and home from my mother and from her brothers and sisters and all of my cousins. And it's still. Is what I yearn for as an adult is that same feeling when we were younger, when everyone came to each other's houses and it was, uh, you felt so much pride when you can say your cousin. I grew up as an only child, so I couldn't say my brothers or sisters, but my cousins were my brothers and sisters. Um, And I grew up in New York city, you know, which is unique unto itself. A lot of people wonder what it's like to live in a place like that. And it was wonderful until it wasn't for me anymore. And I felt like I had to leave not only for my own sanity, but also because my family had grown to, I was, I had become an adoptive mother.

Daniel Rock: 3:33

And so let's touch on that a little bit. I'll, I'll carry on your journey a little bit. I know reading your bio, there was, um, some flirtations of more than the flirtation with Hollywood and some, some career aspirations there that you changed because of the journey that you took, do you want to just sort of touch on that a little bit for us?

Ayo Haynes, Open Adoption Success Coach: 3:51

Sure. So I became an actress in college, very small parts and jobs, just locally. It was my college job. Some people work in the bookstore. I did little jobs around town in Boston, um, for different companies and, um, became really in love with the whole world of acting. Uh, but I was at school on a scholarship. And, uh, getting my BA and my MBA within five years on this great scholarship. And I had this incredible opportunity over the summer of my junior year, I believe it was where I worked for a Broadway theater company and, um, I stumbled into this huge acting job and met people who took me under their wings. And I just fell in love with acting that summer. And I declared to my mother that I wasn't going back to school. And thankfully she prevailed and said, no, let's work out a deal. You'll go back, you'll get this degree. And after that, you can do whatever you want with acting. I'll give you five years, so to speak. And I did that and I was working immediately right after school. In fact, the week before I finished my last set of classes, I had booked a children's show. Um, and so. It was validation that this could happen. So I've been an actor for over 30 years now, I believe. And I, um, the, the story you're talking about is when I had an incredible opportunity on a comedy show by one of the top comedians at the time. And, um, they kind of pulled a fast one on me. The audition was very straightforward and, um, improv, improvisation aspect to it. And they said, Oh, we can't give you the script because it's very top secret, but we'll, we'll give it to you afterwards, you know, later. So when they did give it to me, it was when I was already at the, um, the table read to actually meet everyone, the producers, directors, the comedian himself. And, um, I, as I was reading the script, I said, Oh my goodness, I can't, I can't do this. I can't say this and live with myself. So long story short with that story is I walked off. I walked off the set and I didn't look back. And it was actually one of the first times that I started really knowing how much self power I had over. The decisions I made and not taking anything that was thrown at me and not feeling like I didn't have a voice or choice in how my life would play out. And I didn't want to live with regret for that moment. And that really informed how I moved forward with my decision to become an adoptive mom. You know, I tried IUI, I tried IVF, I tried being in a relationship that would go to marriage that didn't work. And so, um, By the time I was at this really critical stage of fertility in my early forties, I had no real choices left after the, the fertility treatments didn't work. So I decided to do adoption. Um, and it worked and it worked profoundly and has been amazing. And it's been a way for me to learn even more about myself because. The adoption process is fraught with ups and downs and feeling pressure to take whatever baby comes along. You do have a choice. You can say no to situations. And so that acting situation as many years before. It was, it really did inform how I went through the adoption process, speaking up for myself saying, no, this is not how I envisioned being a mother. Um, so this situation is not going to work. This situation will, what I'm going to say on my brochures, um, all of those things that I stood up for myself. And so now all these years later, I stand up for my clients. I'm an adoption doula. I like to say. You know, and I, I helped them find their voice through the adoption process. And I'm not, not acting, but it's not my priority at the moment. I'm still, I'm really focusing on my, my coaching.

Daniel Rock: 8:01

And so talking a little bit more about that process, what, what was the process like for you, I suppose, you know, I'm really interested to hear a little bit about that because again, I think probably people have a, know, I probably do, I'm talking my thing, a conceived idea of kind of what adoption is and how that process works. So I'd be really interested to understand how that process falls for you and, and kind of what are some of the. suppose kind of myths or kind of preconceptions that people have about the process.

Ayo Haynes, Open Adoption Success Coach: 8:28

Right. So it's not unlike buying a house and it sounds crude, but there's a ton of paperwork and there's a lot of processes that can't be overlooked that you can't jump around. Um, and you work with somebody who is helping you through the process. So if you're buying a house. If you have a mortgage broker or mortgage banker, if you're adopting a baby, you're working with a social worker or an agency to, uh, navigate the adoption process to fill out the right paperwork in the right order, get the fingerprints, send them off to DC, get them approved by Homeland security. You are providing all of your financial details, including your tax returns and your insurance documents. I mean, it's, it's very intense. And so I always tell people don't. Get offended by all the questions and how much information they want from you. It's part of the process, right? You either fight it or you just go with it. Um, and you will get frustrated because documents will expire. Hopefully your home study doesn't expire. A home study is valid for a certain amount of time. And then you would have to have a small redo, but generally it's safe. It's a lot of hurry up and wait and be picked. And that was my process. That was exactly what I went through and it was frustrating not having someone to walk me through that from an outside perspective of outside of the agency and the social worker. And so that's what I do for my clients.

Daniel Rock: 10:04

Just kind of kind of want to explore a couple of things around the concept of home with with this with the process. Obviously, you mentioned. previously around kind of the way you grew up in a single mother household, but with a much wider family kind of input as opposed into your, into the way that you were raised and the way that kind of, you know, that piece in New Zealand, they have a, which is where I spent, you know, 20, 20 odd years of my life in, in multicultural, they have a concept called Fano, which is in, is in a direct translation that means family, but actually it's kind of a lot more complex than that. It's a, it's a real sort of deeper, more emotional, physical. Concept around an entire three or four generations raising Children together as part of a wider family network. And I've probably butchered that meaning a little bit and I try to be respectful as I can. But it's a really interesting concept that goes behind perhaps the anglicized version of family that I would have grown up in. You know, which is mom, dad, and then you have some cousins, you might see a family events and maybe hang out with occasionally it, what is not really that completely integrated family concept that is. Um, I'd be interested to hear kinda from where you've gone or from what your background was in the way that your family was and to becoming an adoptive mother, how has that shaped your feeling of home and family?

Ayo Haynes, Open Adoption Success Coach: 11:28

So it's interesting. I told you about my experience as a young child growing up with all of my cousins around. We even went to the same camp, summer camp. Like we really felt like we took over the camp and it felt amazing to be able to say, I know him, I know her and we were connected. Um, growing up, that was my reality as an adult, because I had my children so late. So much later than all of my cousins, there are very few cousins that my daughter has. So I've had to make my additional family members out of friends. And that was one of the reasons why I moved from New York to Connecticut because I felt so isolated in New York and moving into suburban atmosphere. You know, my daughter's school and her playmates families become friends. And I was able to, as a realtor, bring some friends up from, from New York who wanted the same kind of escape of New York to Connecticut. So they have become my, my brother and sister. Um, and their daughter is my niece. And, you know, I have people like that, that I can fill in the gaps because my, the family members that I grew up with are all over the U S they're not where I'm at. Um, and so I miss that for my daughter. I miss that for her to have that kind of experience. And the funny thing is many of her really good friends from school. Are also only children, right? So it's a little easier that way to, to be able to connect with families that have only children, girls to foster that kind of same home feeling for them.

Daniel Rock: 13:19

think that's becoming more common. And, you know, if I look at now, my situation is different. You know, we, my wife and I had a daughter last year now I'm in my, you know, I'm 46, I was 45 when Lily arrived. So, you know, an older father for the first time and very much the same. We were both living in New Zealand and I'm from the UK originally, my wife's from the U S um, and so we didn't have family now. I have a wonderful friend network and our daughter had some health challenges when she

Ayo Haynes, Open Adoption Success Coach: 13:45

Okay.

Daniel Rock: 14:01

I've got an actual niece who is almost 30 and I've got my best friend in the world, his son and daughter, his daughter's 20, his son's almost 16, you know, it's, and that there, I've considered them my niece and nephew since they were born. But you know, that's not somebody who's going to play with my. One year old

Ayo Haynes, Open Adoption Success Coach: 14:20

Okay.

Daniel Rock: 14:20

two year old, you know, so of the decisions we made as a family was to move back to the U S to be closer to family. Um, my wife, Katie, she's got friends who've got young kids and it's a network and we've got family, actual family here, and we've been able to blend that in and it does mean, you know, and that's one of the reasons I started this podcast is because that whole, know, you, you get this mindset of, you know, home, you know, that's where you live, but actually. It isn't necessarily just that. It's the roots you put down the networks you build, you know, that whole kind of situation that you create for yourself becomes home. really interested to see how did you find sort of upping sticks with a young daughter moving to another state and kind of starting again, how did that kind of impact feeling of home for you?

Ayo Haynes, Open Adoption Success Coach: 15:09

Hey, literally never thought I would leave New York. I love New York that much. I loved my friends. I loved how I grew up a diverse group of friends from all walks of life. I went to a very diverse school, um, high school and literally my, um, best. My doubles partner was from Sri Lanka. I had a boyfriend who was Jewish. I had friends who are Greek. I had, it was so such a mishmash. Example of what New York City is. When I went to college, I was in for a little bit of a shock because I didn't get that. I thought Boston would be the same way, but you know, you're at a smaller school. It's a business school. It was very new England y. So I, I actually had a bit of culture shock there being, You know, one of the few black women there are black students. Um, and so I dashed back to New York to live after school, but then in my thirties, I started really getting tired of it. And I, and certainly by my late thirties, I had a Been tired of living in a co op. And if you don't, if your viewers don't know what a co op is, it's a, an apartment building where you have an apartment and you own it, but you only own shares of it. Right? So you don't really own it. It's not real property and living with nosy neighbors. And, you know, I found myself coming home every single day. And as soon as I crossed my threshold, all the energy and excitement that I felt before then just depleted. And so I, I realized after a few, Times of knocking my head against the wall. You got to get out of here. This is not where you're being fed. And I think a lot of times when you grow up in the same building, my mother lived in the same building, you know, there was this attachment, but when she, she passed away the same year I adopted, in fact, when she passed away, even more so, there was no reason for me to stay in New York. Everyone, all of my extended family had gone except for my mother's sister. And. So I had property in Connecticut and I said, well, you know what? It's empty. Let's go, let's just try it out. And every time we came up for the weekend, I had a dog at the time who basically was my first child, literally before my adoptive child came into my life. And the dog would go running crazy around. The baby was like all excited. She was excited anyway, but, and I, maybe she was even more excited because I felt like I could breathe and I didn't have four walls and didn't like my neighbors. So after doing that a couple of weeks, weekends, it was like, okay, what's the point of going back? Cause as soon as I went back, that same feeling happened. And so, um, Although it took a while, that adjustment was super easy. I met friends. I I'm living exactly what I want. And I have a group of friends and my daughter has a group of friends that we can get together. It's just an easier lifestyle than big city living.

Daniel Rock: 18:18

That's really cool. And I think, yeah, it, it's, it is an interesting one when you make that move, it's often scarier than the outcome actually is. kind of, sort of want to go back to the adoption piece with you for a little bit. Obviously you are a proponent of open adoption for those of people that may not understand the difference between closed adoption and open adoption. Do you want to kind of just explain that a little bit and kind of why

Ayo Haynes, Open Adoption Success Coach: 18:40

Sure.

Daniel Rock: 18:41

open adoption path?

Ayo Haynes, Open Adoption Success Coach: 18:43

Well, I would say right about now, almost every adoption is open unless there's some really strange, extenuating circumstances back during the. During my mother's times when people were boomers that age group, there was shame about getting pregnant outside of marriage and you know, the, the woman went away and had the baby and the, you know, the, there was a convent involved or something like that are home for girls. And then there would be this adoption that would happen in secret. With, um, no information passed about who the person was, circumstances, all of that, that's a closed adoption and open adoptions. When you do know who the birth parents are, when you do know the circumstances, that's open now. Most people today have a semi open because yes, they know the information about the birth parent, but they don't know they don't have a relationship with the birth parent. So that's what I call an open adoption when I actually have a relationship with the birth family that is including um, Not just them. It's me and the adoptive child. And we obviously have the child in common. We have the child's wellbeing in common. And so by being able to have conversations with them, to be respectful and have this open exchange, obviously not every situation is going to open itself or lend itself to an open adoption. And I'm not saying that they're in your life 24, seven. And, you know, You speak to them every day. If that is your situation, if you worked up to that, then great, you know, that would be the ideal, but you don't have to. But again, it's all about having, um, an open dialogue available with the birth family. without shame, fear or regret. And then there's also the part that's so crucial in your home. You have to have an open dialogue with your child, letting them know that they are adopted. It would be the worst. experience for that child to not know that they're adopted when everybody else in your world knows that they're adopted. And then it's a ticking time bomb when someone drops it on them and they're not emotionally equipped or ready to hear it. You should always be the one that starts that conversation. So that's how I like to explain what open adoption is. It's with having a relationship with the birth family, but also being open with your child about how your family came to be.

Daniel Rock: 21:24

Yeah, and how have you managed that with your daughter? How have you sort of managed that conversation as she's got older and perhaps her understanding of what that means changes?

Ayo Haynes, Open Adoption Success Coach: 21:34

It's funny because people go, why, why would you tell her she's adopted my, well, why wouldn't I tell her she's adopted? That's exactly what she is. She's adopted. I couldn't have a child and God granted this, this put us together, put me together with this woman who picked me to be her mother. So, um. The conversation just started when she was very young, maybe about two or three, um, reading to her, reading a books about adoption, showing that this is another child who's come to their family through adoption. The baby, the baby, you didn't grow in the mommy's stomach, but that you are just as love as if you were. And it wasn't anything that was. Weird or strange because she doesn't know any different. It's just, okay. It's a great story. I'm the same way. Oh my goodness. Wow. And you put love around the story. You put love around how you came to be and joy and grace. And it just becomes an amazing reality.

Daniel Rock: 22:42

That's a lovely way of framing it. I really like that. Um, in terms of the, the adopt, the adoptee parents, I may not get the

Ayo Haynes, Open Adoption Success Coach: 22:54

The birth parents

Daniel Rock: 22:55

birth

Ayo Haynes, Open Adoption Success Coach: 22:55

like me, the adoptive.

Daniel Rock: 22:57

Um,

Ayo Haynes, Open Adoption Success Coach: 22:57

The birth parents. Yes.

Daniel Rock: 22:59

their involvement and how that interacts into your home life and kind of, uh, I'd be really keen to sort of understand, you sort of mentioned you have an open relationship with them. How does that kind of shape daughter's upbringing or your daughter's perception of home? Do you think

Ayo Haynes, Open Adoption Success Coach: 23:17

I think it makes her feel so comfortable. So, um, someone actually brought me one of my then friends, uh, brought me to the, brought to the hospital, a big bear and for, for my daughter. And she got it from the hospital, um, gift store. And I thought, I said, Oh, why wouldn't it be great if I Got the same bear and gave it to the birth mother, and then there would be a connection. And um, so I, you know, I just gave it to her and I said, you know, when you look at the bear, you can think about your daughter who also has the same bear. There's that connection. And I really didn't give it much thought beyond that. And then. Yeah. Mm hmm. When we finally have the opportunity to meet, which was several years later, I think my daughter was about four, three or four. Um, is she, I don't know what my daughter was perceiving, but she kind of knew, and I wish I had like a tape recorder in my brain to go back to that moment. But what I can say is after she met her birth mother that day, she started calling that bear. The same bear that they had together by her birth mother's name. She on her own renamed the bear to her birth mother's name. Amazing. Amazing. Right.

Daniel Rock: 24:52

and I think that's what I really like about that is how normal it is, you know, and I think that's, I think we as human beings sometimes over definitely overcomplicate things. like we need to hold things back in terms of the knowledge that we share. Perhaps because of how we think other people might react or, you know, because of any perceived stigma. And I just love how normalized everything is in the way that you've spoke about that and talked about that. What advice do you give to people wanting to do that journey and having maybe some trepidation around sort of reactions or feelings? Yeah.

Ayo Haynes, Open Adoption Success Coach: 25:36

just starts with having a conversation. Even just today, I had a conversation with someone who said, was telling about her son and his wife who were having problems. Um, and it didn't work. So that's it. And, and just, but she kept saying, I think they're, they're done with that. I said, well, why don't you have a conversation with them instead of thinking it's okay to ask people this, you know, you're not asking it in an intrusive way, but you can just say, Hey, you know what? Yeah. I saw this amazing woman talking about adoption and how it changed her life and how she works with women. And it has changed their life. Did you ever think about this or, you know, here, let me send you this clip, just something that opens the door to have a conversation. And I find that if we stop trying to protect each other and just have really adult conversations that are heartfelt, we would be In such a better place as a society, but we have all these conversations in our minds about what they're going to say, how they're going to react. We're going to offend them. I don't want to make them sad. And it's like, we're, we're human beings. We have all these emotions and it's up to us to work through them. And hopefully. You're talking with somebody who can make that conversation a little easier to have. And so I would say if you're having that desire to be a mom, whether you're single or a couple, reach out to me. You know, I have a website called open adoption, success. com, and you can reach me on different socials. I have literature and freebies that will help you walk through. Is this really what I want? Is this my life non negotiable, which is what I always say motherhood was for me at that stage when I had that critical time to decide if I was going to be single for the rest of my life, if I, um, or not, I shouldn't say a mother without being a mother. I'm going to start that again. I'm going to. So, um. I had a critical time at that age to decide if I'm going to stay motherless, even I might marry later on, but that time of being able to birth a child was gone. Did it matter? If I didn't birth the child, could I still love another human being as if it was mine? And when I asked myself all these different questions, the answer was absolutely. I didn't need to see myself replicated in a smaller human being and see my features. My desire to be a mother was from a nurturing standpoint, not of, uh, I, I need to see a mini me. And so if that is your life, non negotiable to be a mother, then do it by all means, figure out how you're going to do this.

Daniel Rock: 28:42

Thank you so much for that. And I, I will absolutely include a link to the website in the show notes so people can access that resource. Cause I think it's incredibly valuable people who are kind of considering kind of those, what do I do? So obviously besides, um, visiting website and using resources and engaging you, what are the sort of the first steps that people should take they're about to start this journey?

Ayo Haynes, Open Adoption Success Coach: 29:07

Yeah, I have a great questionnaire that I give all of the people that I work with before they start. And it's just. A simple questionnaire. There's no right or wrong answers. It's just to prompt a conversation with yourself. Is this what I can do? Do am I financially secure to do this? Do I have a network of people that can come around and support me? Um, Who cannot, do I have the kind of job that will support me being a single mother? Do I need to change that job? All these different questions. And so again, there's no right or wrong answer, but with those answers, you can decide where you need to make changes and what your timeline is. Do you want a boy? Do you want a girl? Can you, as a single woman? Become the mother of a child who has physical needs, like physical ailments and stuff like that. These are real questions and some people are equipped for that and then others will not. So again, it's really taking the time to craft your own story as to how you envision your future. Your journey to motherhood from there, do your research, go online, see what adoption agencies are out there, what their requirements are. Um, find out how much it costs. And then I would say, don't wait much longer, right? Your forties and fifties. We have a lot of wisdom that we can share with our audience Younger children, our children, we have a lot more patients. Generally, we have a lot more resources, but time is still not on our side. Right? And so you want to have children while you're still young, you want to get in shape and be healthy as well, you know, so you can be there for the long haul. So all of those things, it's just a matter of. Before you get overwhelmed and then you go, forget it, I can't do it. Have a conversation, find someone who can walk you through the process and be your cheerleader and be the person in your ear, giving you the right encouragement and advice.

Daniel Rock: 31:13

Awesome. Thank you so much for that. And I've really loved having you on. I, it's been a really lovely conversation and a really inspiring journey. So thank you so much for that. I've really, really appreciate your time. thank you everybody for listening to this week's episode of wherever I lay my hat, which podcast about home. But you can see today, those conversations can be quite different, which is really, really exciting and, and like really. Reassuring a lot of the time as well. So I've loved that again, as I said before, this is a show about your stories. So if you're interested in taking part, please email me at Dan at wherever I lay my hat. com and I would love to hear from you. Thank you so much. And tune in again next week.