Daniel Rock: 0:05

Welcome to wherever I lay my hat, a podcast about the concept of home. Um, this week's guest is Dr. Scott Allen, who is a physician, author, and professor emeritus at the university of California, Riverside. He is internationally recognized in the field of health and human rights. Most recently for helping bring attention to the conditions of children in us immigration detention, which is work. He received, uh an award along with 2019, the ride and how a palate prize. Hopefully I've said that correctly. And the physicians for human rights award. memoir about surviving a childhood burn injury and subsequent journey as a teenager to the war torn Cambodian border across a bridge of fire published in March 2024. And I'll make sure there's a link to that in our show notes. He's also appeared on CBS 60 minutes, CNN and multiple NPR programs. And his op eds have appeared in the Washington post USA today and the international Herald Tribune. And I'm honored to have him as a guest today.

Scott: 1:03

Thank you, Daniel. It's my pleasure to be with you. Happy to be here.

Daniel Rock: 1:07

And look, that's a fascinating, um, background. Um, and I'm really excited to explore of that with you today or a lot of that with you today. So I'd love to hear a little bit sort of, if we start maybe from the beginning really, and a little bit around your background and how you got into doing the things you do and yeah, if you could just sort of give us a little bit of a introduction, it would be wonderful.

Scott: 1:31

Terrific. Well, I was born and raised in Connecticut, in northwestern Connecticut. Um, uh, a, uh, suburban community, um, uh, basically a comfortable middle class upbringing. Um, and all was good. Uh, however, at age 10, um, my brother and I were lighting a fire. We were using gasoline as an accelerant, and, uh, the fumes were ignited and the gas can exploded, uh, sending a, a flamethrower like gust in my direction. And I suffered, uh, third degree burns over about a third of my body. Ended up, um, hospitalized through, uh, much of the latter half of 1972. Um, and, uh, then returned back to my suburban setting as a 10 year old child, but now forever changed by the experience. Of the trauma and a burn hospital. So that's, we can, and we can explore that some more, but I'm just trying to set up the framework. Um, that, you know, we're talking, uh, we'll be talking today about a journey, but also, you know, trying to find home. Um, it's just an interesting frame for me to think about this story. Uh, because I, I had a wonderful home. I really had no problems with my home, but after that, Obviously life changing incident, um, there began a new search for, for something called home and it was a, it was a long and interesting path. Um, so, uh, I, I appreciate the framework you're using for this podcast. Cause it allows me to think of the story in a slightly different way than I usually tell it.

Daniel Rock: 3:17

Yeah, I'd be just touch on that and we can touch on it a little bit more as we go forward. But just and obviously sometimes hard to put yourself back into your 10 year old 11 year old mind because obviously the world is very different as a child. But obviously home is not something you necessarily think of as a child. Like, is this safe? Not safe. It's just what it is. Did do you think it's probably a better way of asking that question? Do you think The accident changed your feeling of how home was to you. Did home feel less safe? Did it, did it change that whole perception for you? Do you think,

Scott: 3:53

Yeah, it certainly changed my perception and you know, it's interesting. I don't think I thought of home as being less safe. Interestingly enough, but I, I prematurely got to that point that I think more typically people get to in their late teens, early twenties where I feel like. Felt that home no longer had everything I needed, um, that I was, uh, prematurely exposed to a much bigger world with much more serious issues, you know, and awareness of things that most 10 year olds don't have, um, quite simply suffering, um, death, the lack of safety that, that, you know, my parents did nothing wrong in, uh, in, in that my brother and I got into something we shouldn't have. I mean, So many children do the same, despite the best effort of parents. Um, but I, but I understood that, that nobody could really keep me safe, that the world was full of risk. Um, and really between 10 and 17, when I finally leave home to go across the world and search for answers. Um, it was, it was feeling that home no longer at, in that, at that time, at that stage in my life. It no longer had what I needed.

Daniel Rock: 5:06

okay,

Scott: 5:07

And it wasn't because it wasn't because, you know, my, my wonderful parents are still alive today. Really the best parents, siblings, the whole thing, it had the whole normal package, but I had now, uh, was experiencing some new questions that I had to look further.

Daniel Rock: 5:23

so 17, it's a big step. Even if you were 10, so like late seventies. Early eighties is a big tie. Even back then going overseas at 17 is a pretty big call. Um, show some big trust on your parents side. I think I was, I would suggest, but talk to me a little bit about that. Kind of where, why, why at 17, did you go? I think you've touched a little bit on that, but also what made the decisions of where to go and obviously Cambodia. And there was a lot going on in the seventies and eighties in Cambodia. So it'd be really interesting to hear some of that.

Scott: 5:56

Yeah, no, absolutely. Um, and, and, and in fact, you know, the, the book, uh, one of the reasons I wrote it, um, is. For now 44 years. People ask the very question like, what was going on in your head? You picked up at 17. And by the way, my parents very understanding, I, I did not go with their knowledge. They got a collect call from the general post office in Thailand to their utter shock that I was already there. Um, but what was going on? So, you know, the context for your listeners, particularly younger listeners. So, you know, the Vietnam War, uh, the American involvement in the Vietnam War, that's basically the period from 1965 to 1973. The war ends after American withdrawal in 1975. So this is something I'm growing up, uh, exposed to on the television. We have neighbors who serve, um, uh, people in our community who are prisoners of war. Um, and when I got burned, I was cared for by a, uh, general surgeon who had just returned from a tour of duty on a burn ward in Vietnam. So, uh, I had an awareness of Vietnam, but, um, What was happening in the news by the time 1979 rolls around, in the fall of 1979, that is when the Vietnamese invaded neighboring Cambodia and overthrew the Khmer Rouge regime. The Khmer Rouge had taken over in 1975 and undertook a radical revolution, not unlike the Cultural Revolution, but maybe even more radical.

Daniel Rock: 7:33

well, possibly one of the five most evil people that's probably ever existed. Um,

Scott: 7:39

Correct.

Daniel Rock: 7:40

there's a,

Scott: 7:41

Yes.

Daniel Rock: 7:42

very thought provoking book and there's a movie made of it, but I'd recommend people read the book, which is obviously Killing Fields, which is all about the Pol Pot regime and Khmer Rouge in Cambodia, which is an awesome read. And

Scott: 7:53

And

Daniel Rock: 7:53

yeah, that's,

Scott: 7:54

very important, uh, uh, well, the, the original story by Sidney Schamberg of his relationship with Dithbron and then the movie, uh, that is really quite outstanding. By the way, as an aside, uh, while you're making a recommendation for that movie, uh, Myself who was there in those camps and many of my Cambodian friends, um, would vouch for the authenticity of that music movie and the accuracy. So, uh, it's a really important one. Yeah. Anyway, the, what was happening in October of 1979 is the first refugees escaping the Khmer Rouge made it to the Thai Cambodian border. And it was the headline. It was the headline for at least a few months, um, Starving Refugees Crossing Into Thailand. And, you know, I had been percolating feeling that, you know, love my parents, love my community, um, but something was missing. I felt just compelled to not pick up and read a newspaper. Um, or learn this news and feel like, no, that's not related to me. That's not connected. I felt very connected. Um, and I had no illusions that I had anything to offer. I was 17, hadn't finished high school, didn't even have like an emergency medical technician training and had nothing to offer, but, uh, bought a one way ticket and got myself to Thailand and, and showed up on the doorstep of, uh, an agency and managed to, uh, convince them to take me on as a volunteer worker headed for the border. Um, And the story goes on from, from there. So, um, but again, where we started, you know, I, I think the common way. If I'm briefly telling some of the stories, I ran away from home at 17 to go to the Cambodian border, but it's slightly misleading because I wasn't running away from something so much as I was running towards something. And as crazy as it all sounds, and as young as I was, um, it's one of these moments in life. My intuition was 110 percent correct. I, I did find what I was looking for. In terms of meaning, um, the beginning of answers, a path forward in my life that, so really a pivotal point in my life, ended up working on the border that first trip for nine months, um, and then would return. So over the next five years worked in the refugee program in Thailand, um, on and off for a total of about three years. And, uh, at the end of that first, um, tour, while still 17, I was actually hired by the U S embassy. So it's sort of a. Unlikely story. Um, and all this eventually led, I eventually returned to the United States and pursued a career in medicine and human rights and as much that follows. But, you know, we're really focusing on, or at least now in the book and in our conversation so far on that critical period of searching for the truth. For answers, um, searching for a sort of now new, different definition of home, um, and how I, I find it in the most unlikely of places a refugee camp on the Thai Cambodian border.

Daniel Rock: 10:55

And that's really interesting. Was that much of that was your experience of being amongst that environment and how much of that is you seeing the experience of others having their, you know, their world has been changed, right? That home was one thing for them. And now we're in a refugee camp. They have no permanent home. How did their experiences, and we probably talk a little bit about this later on when we talk about the people trying to get into the U S as well, but that whole Being in a displaced persons camp or refugee camp, how does that change your perception, or did it change your perception of home and what that means?

Scott: 11:30

No, absolutely it did. You know, I think one of the biggest misconceptions about a lot of migration that's not done for, I mean, you know, we both come from affluent societies. Generally, if you move to another country, it's because you have an opportunity or it sounds exciting or you want to try it. Yeah. But so often migration is people who never wanted to leave their home. In fact, they liked everything about their home, but things happened, external things happened, um, economically, politically, um, safety, all these things can, uh, be threatened and be unsettled. And then reluctantly, they go in search for a new home. I think that kind of perspective is missing. Well, here we were with, um, you know, Cambodians, uh, Who certainly wanted to escape the violence and oppression of the Khmer Rouge regime, but they'd be just as quick to tell you before the Khmer Rouge came to power. The power, they loved Cambodia. They loved their life in Cambodia. There was some, there was a home there that got destroyed and they weren't necessarily looking to come to Canada, France, United States, Australia. They were looking for safety, a place to, you know, to secure themselves for the moment. And indeed many, um, have either returned to Cambodia or visit Cambodia again, you know, all these years later. Um, but you're absolutely correct. Why did I find what I was looking for? Uh, well. I had immediately so many people who had been more traumatized than I had, whose lives had been more disrupted, uh, than mine had been, but they were, uh, literally modeling, um, how to deal with adversity, how to deal with change. And, and already in this bamboo structured tenuous mined border, narrow strip of land, the first camp I was in was called my root, it was. The southernmost Cambodian refugee camp that was at the base of the mountains between Cambodia and Thailand and then a little short strip of land before you got to the ocean. Really precarious place considering in the mountains were both Vietnamese troops, Khmer Rouge troops, And, and along the Thai border, the Thai troops, it was very militarily, very vulnerable, um, and yet people were making that camp in that moment, their home, I mean, they were modifying, you know, the, the, the relief agencies came and put up some bamboo structures really quickly, but. But they were adding, you know, little things to their living spaces, personalizing them, um, reconfiguring and reconstructing their families. Very devastated, separated, um, many people dead. So families weren't necessarily the biological family. They were often adopting people they met along the way, um, and restructuring and forming a, a, a new, So I was really, uh, being shown, uh, right up close, uh, people overcoming tremendous adversity with, with a lot of very good coping skills. So yeah, that had a profound influence on how I Viewed my own situation, how I viewed the world.

Daniel Rock: 14:40

And would you say that, was it that, I suppose the next question for me sort of touches to the next stage of your journey, I suppose, is that experience in Thailand at the refugee camps, was that a direct correlation to you then wanting to go and study medicine? Or was that already something that was in your head and it just confirmed that? Interested to understand that next

Scott: 15:02

Yeah. No, the, the, the kernel of the idea to go into medicine clearly came for me, uh, from my experience as a patient in the burn hospital. Um, and in fact, people knew that when I, I did, you know, it's impulsive as I was in running away and going to Thailand with no job secured ahead of time. Um, people who knew I wanted to do something to help were urging. You know, patients and caution saying like, why don't you pursue, you want to be a doctor, go educate yourself, be a doctor. When you're a doctor, you could really help people. That's when you should go. It's just that, you know, you're young, you're impatient. I said, you know, the Cambodian border is happening now and I can't ignore it, but it obviously reinforced, uh, my desire to go on and, and get training where I could be even more helpful. You know, we we've glossed over. What did I do when I got, you know, a relief team, uh, took pity on me. I gotta be honest with you. I mean, I think people were struck that this young kid got himself out there and they said, well, you know, hop in the van, we'll send you out with our team. So I, I really was doing sort of odd jobs that most of which could have been done by local people, refugees themselves, or local Thai workers. Um, and I was keenly aware that, you know, I looked around and saw the people that were really being helpful and they tended to be people with experience and training and so forth. So that just reinforced that, okay, this has been good for me. And I, and eventually I was able to find a meaningful role when I got hired by the U. S. Embassy and was able to process refugee applications and help people move forward, um, which didn't require a whole lot of skill. It was on the job training, um, and, you know, task wise, fairly basic work, um, of, of recording people's histories, filling out forms for them. Um, but, uh, that, yeah, did, did I see there that, like, I really needed to go back, pursue my education, and, and get some skills that would actually be useful in these situations? And so, yeah, that propelled me. As hard and long as medical training is, I, I never, You know, had any second thoughts or doubts about it?

Daniel Rock: 17:08

Okay. And was that always the plan to use your medical training in that way? So obviously medical training is medical school and then there's residency and specializations and whether you go into surgery, general practice, was your plan always to go into that? And I wouldn't excuse my ignorance, know what the terminology for that style of medicine would be, but was that always the plan? No.

Scott: 17:31

the plan very explicitly the plan and for really the next 10 years of my life. I pursued a very tailored educational track supported by really good mentors to be Someone who was going to have a great impact in international health and then life happens And in my case, literally, uh, weeks before I finished my specialized 10 year training track in international health, um, my first child was born with severe and profound developmental disabilities. And the idea of living in the third world just vanished in an instant. Um, so, but this is everyone's life, right? I mean, you're, you make your plans and then you react to what happens, which is actually, you know, I, you know, at 62 years old, I'm not. Unhappy about that. And it keeps things interesting. If you could plan your life at 17 and have it all work out in some ways that would be, um, less rewarding. So, you know, I, I then had to adapt and, and that's when I switched and did some work in community health centers in the Mississippi Delta, uh, but then. Um, had an opportunity to work in the, um, jails and prisons correctional health field, which had some overlap from refugee work, um, and, and did that. But that eventually led its way back to doing work, um, in, uh, immigration detention. So there is some coming full circle because, you know, now at the end of my career, I am back involved, uh, in part of my work. Um, with, uh, people who are, you know, again, as we said, effectively refugees, we will not make that a legal definition, but in the common sense of the word, people who are displaced from their homes, who are trying to find a new home.

Daniel Rock: 19:15

Yeah. And I appreciate what you're saying in those six of them. I, one of the reasons we are where we are. So we moved from New Zealand to Birmingham and Alabama, which is necessarily a route that that many people take. but part of ours was driven by the same thing. So we, I had my daughter last year, and And she was born with a congenital heart defect and

Scott: 19:37

Okay.

Daniel Rock: 19:37

of a fairly rare version of down syndrome called mosaic down syndrome. So

Scott: 19:41

Yes.

Daniel Rock: 19:42

there's a, a nice piece of uncertainty around what her development will look like going forward and look for us. Neither us had family in New Zealand. Now we both had wonderful friend networks of people that cared for us deeply and that were great resource. But it's a little different to being around family and having piece. And not designed to be a political, um, podcast. But for various reasons, the south in the U. S. Because incredibly conservative area, there's a higher percentage of down syndrome babies born than there isn't perhaps somewhere like New Zealand, which is a lot more liberal, which means there's more resource. So they've got a specialist down syndrome clinic here. There's

Scott: 20:20

Yep. Good.

Daniel Rock: 20:21

centers. So for us, it was yes, being close to family was important. But also, as you sort of mentioned, being where You know, having a young child developmental issues in a place where there isn't perhaps that network set up to support that. That was part of the decision to come here. Now, my wife's from here, which makes it a lot easier for us to do that, but I totally get the, know, that whole thing. That was not the plan. You know, we were thinking of coming to the US for a few years, but it was likely to be Atlanta or Charlotte or,

Scott: 20:49

Sure.

Daniel Rock: 20:50

Nashville or somewhere like that. Birmingham probably wasn't on the original list. Um, but, you know, we're very fortunate in Birmingham. It's got some great hospitals, some great,

Scott: 20:58

Absolutely. Yes.

Daniel Rock: 20:59

things like that. And I kind of want to touch on one of the other things you sort of mentioned there, which was, you know, working in the correction and stuff like that. That's a whole nother concept of home that, you know, that's a, they're not at home and that isn't quite by choice. How does that, how did that kind of shape your thinking of what people do to adapt and, and thrive or struggle in those environments? Yup.

Scott: 21:27

in, you know, there's, there's a couple of settings we've talked about that are detention settings, the refugee camps being one. Immigration detention in the U. S. context is slightly different. It's more, more like the carceral system and then criminal justice, you know, of those, um, they're all quite different and have their own pressures. Um, and I, and I think that nobody would ever say, They were at home in any of those, but circumstance force people, particularly if the detention is prolonged to do something, to make it a home. And it really cuts to the bone, um, the essence of, of how do you, um, cope and make someplace your home. And you start to realize that I think you've hit on some of these things. So first of all, the most important thing is I think is sort of an internal Um, anchor your feelings about what home is. Um, that those are things you carry with you. They move with you where you go. Uh, when you're young, you don't realize you possess these things, but over time they become, uh, more clear. But the second thing that you've already touched upon is, is, you know, whether it's biological family or acquired family through friends, close friendships and relationships. I think that latter part is really one of the critical. Things I see in people who cope better in these settings that otherwise are really the antithesis of home. Um, so, um, inmates of jails and prisons, um, who, who have in that setting developed a functional network, not only with fellow inmates, but also maybe some of the staff who work in those facilities. And, and that becomes their community. Uh, they tend to do better. Um, then those who understandably reject the whole thing and, and don't accept it. So, but, but the ones who cope and do better again, it's sort of like, what did I learn from the refugees? You know, I learned, uh, adaptability, uh, coping mechanisms, but also, you know, over the years when I was in particularly full time treating inmate patients, you know, I, I learned a lot Uh, seeing the world through their perspective on how they coped. And you know, those who did cope well on those who didn't. And you learn from both. You learn the ones who are struggling, they can't, uh, quite find any sort of peace, you, you say, okay, well, the things you're doing are maybe not as helpful, uh, but you're, you can be struck by, um, Uh, seeing people really functioning and, and making meaning of their life and, and rather extreme circumstances. And some of these techniques we, we, we, we've just been referring to, but your relationships, being open to invest in new relationships with all the risk that's involved with that, being open to explore relationships with people who are very different than you. It's another thing I think most people are hesitant to do, but you and I share that, uh, at young ages, we had the opportunity To live in places that were unfamiliar with us. And we were kind of forced to learn how to do that

Daniel Rock: 24:25

Yup. Yup.

Scott: 24:27

was easier for us going forward.

Daniel Rock: 24:32

And I think that's an interesting, you know, as a, someone who does not have that experience or lens and you see how things are portrayed in media and, and those sorts of things. And you look at someone in an incarceration situation and you go, well, why do people join gangs? And why do people, you know, do this? And actually, when you think about it, you get it because they have, you have to replace that. Yes. There's, there's simple and. You know, protection and whatever you might want to talk about decision, but actually even outside of prison, when you look at under, you know, under privileged communities and people do it, it's because they may not have that family network support network. And

Scott: 25:08

That's right.

Daniel Rock: 25:09

when you're in a situation that I've been, I'm very privileged, you know, come from a privileged upbringing. You know, I'm very conscious as a middle aged white man, I'm about the most privileged being on earth. Um, and I've had opportunities that have been given to me that, you know, Perhaps don't exist elsewhere. And then when you don't have those secure networks and those family networks and those opportunities, you do look for that sense of belonging, which is, you know, a sense of home in any way you can find it. And so that's how I, you know, you kind of have to make that leap. And I'm not sure everyone has that sense of empathy to understand why people do these things.

Scott: 25:44

I think you're correct. I think it's one of the the fundamental drivers of human behavior and human nature that we all do. Yeah, I'd say the vast vast majority of us have a have a deep drive to want to belong. I think the other thing when I think of the home concept, which is again why I think this is such a great frame for the conversation, is Is, you know, before we put it in that frame, I would have described my journey as sort of looking for a certain kind of peace that there was inner turmoil. And I was just trying to look for some sort of peace, but peace is very closely related to this concept of home. You know, what, you know, what does home hearken back to? Yeah. Again, I started by saying my childhood up through age 10, you know, was, was very nurturing, very warm, very pleasant, you know, to some extent, even though after my trauma, That very same setting no longer. Provided everything I needed. I was trying to return to that feeling of security, peace, security, warmth, love, connectedness. So these are things that, that, um, I think we're all always searching for. And the interesting thing, if we're, Given opportunities like you and I have had, and even in the example of, you know, people who are detained and incarcerated, forced into situations where they have to, um, these are the, the basic things that we're still looking for. And, and some of these extreme examples teach us. Can be found under the most extreme circumstances,

Daniel Rock: 27:17

Uh, and yeah, and it's, it's an interesting one in terms of whole premise. As I've done more of these episodes, everyone's journey is different. What everyone finds or the physicality of home is very, very different for everybody. But the sense is tends to want to feel the same. It's, I want to feel safe. I want to feel. Like I belong, I want that sense of peace or sense of calm. Now that's different for everybody. And I remember

Scott: 27:48

right? Right.

Daniel Rock: 27:48

recorded my first episode of this podcast, I was sitting in my local bar having a beer and I've mentioned this before on the show, but, it goes, well, home's just where you sleep and it's where you're heading. I said, well, for you, yes, but if

Scott: 28:00

Yeah,

Daniel Rock: 28:02

undergoing domestic abuse or someone who is scared that will not feel like home. It might be the

Scott: 28:08

that's right.

Daniel Rock: 28:09

but you don't feel safe. And you'd want really, you want to be anywhere, but there, would you still consider that home? And it goes, I hadn't really thought of it that way, because you have that, you only have your lens, right? And I think that's one of the things I find fascinating about your story and journey is you seen so many different lenses. terms of what that means, it gives you a different perspective on your own kind of

Scott: 28:33

Mm hmm.

Daniel Rock: 28:34

home is.

Scott: 28:35

Absolutely Yeah, I mean and the other thing that that you know You have actually lived more internationally than I have but at least I can share that perspective from the somewhat three years I lived in Thailand, but I but since returned the United States in continuing to work with refugee populations including Very close relationships with some of the first refugees I met 44 years ago. They're still very close to me in my life. You know, watching this story, that's his oldest time as people settle here and start their, the especially younger generation, start their families here. Now there's this tension. A story as old as time, is where is home? Is home my home country? Or is home here now? And, and it's sort of in between, uh, depending on where you are in the generational divide, but, uh, that's fascinating to me as well, because it, it, it, people have all these highly individualized stories of, How they're trying to define what, what is home really? I know Cambodians who have been here for over 40 years, who still say no. Cambodia is still home. I, if I, maybe I can get back there. Maybe I want to return there. I can't yet. That's still home. Others say, well, no, Cambodia was home, but home is here now. And everything in between people say, well, no, I got, you know. I, I have ties to both. I'm never quite at home now in one place or the other. I think that's very common in the immigrant experience. That also fascinates me because there's just, again, millions of different coping strategies on how you now deal with this disjointed physicality of home.

Daniel Rock: 30:15

yeah, and I'd agree with that. Like it's a really difficult, it's something that I struggle with identifying at times myself because obviously I grew up. You know, until my early twenties in the UK. And I think part of me would always say, well, the UK is home. That's where I'm from. And like England, if it comes to sport, I support English football team, cricket

Scott: 30:36

Yeah.

Daniel Rock: 30:37

you know, that's, that, that's what I do. You know, that's, that's kind of my mindset, I'd never go back and live there. That doesn't feel like a home I would ever go back to live in. And I think that's a slightly odd concept where of New Zealand, which is my connection to New Zealand is really through longevity. I lived there for the, the most of my adult life before I moved here, but I don't have family. I have some wonderful friends who I miss dearly, but I don't have roots there per se. But that's probably the place I would say emotionally feels most like home in terms of that, whereas I think as I spend more time here and obviously as my daughter grows up here and I build networks here, I can see that transitioning to where I am now, but it is a kind of what opened my eyes up to being such a fluid concept because I don't think

Scott: 31:28

Right, right.

Daniel Rock: 31:28

a permanent thing. It is to me. And I think you can catch like that. There is a lot of fluidity to home is and where do we go? And those sort of things. Um, I kind of just want to sort of touch on a couple more things before, before we wrap up, just finishing off sort of your journey a little bit more. Just, um, we've talked a little bit about the immigration detention centers and things like that. I'd love to hear a little bit more about how you got involved with that and kind of your experiences there.

Scott: 31:58

Well, um, it's related to the career I built in working in health care in, um, jails and prisons, um, and, and became, you know, in the, in the niche that it is, uh, well known in that field. And, Um, so I actually was reproached by, um, the government, um, and when they needed expertise in assessing the quality of medical care in detention settings. Um, so, you know, it really sort of flowed naturally from the work that I did. And of course, when the opportunity arose, I was very interested in it because, uh, again, I had started my whole career in refugee work. So, um, it seemed, um, interesting. familiar and of interest to me. So that, you know, that's how I started doing that work. I do that, uh, as an expert consultant for the federal government, um, and make periodic visits to detention centers and evaluate them and, uh, give the government feedback,

Daniel Rock: 32:51

So I don't want to touch on politics cause it's very, there's a very big, um, can of worms right now. Um, particularly, particularly in the U S, but I suppose the thing I would like to talk about that is your experience with the people, um, in, in, in those centers and kind of what their experiences are and how you feel with them. What's your perception of their perception of high math? That's probably a bit of a convoluted question,

Scott: 33:16

Yep. Well, I get it. I think we were talking about it a little bit earlier in the conversation. Um, you know, first thing I would say is, you know, when I, when I follow as it's on, we ought to unavoidably do, it's a worldwide conversation about migration, displacement and what opportunities and rights people should have, um, as it relates to immigration. Um, I think the biggest thing that gets lost, um, And the discussion is sort of the humanity of it. I always say that people who, you know, know I do this type of work and, and, and whether I ask them to or not, they often volunteer their opinions on an immigration law. I just say, I wish you could talk to some of the individual people that I get to talk to and hear individual stories. Instead of hearing these broad, sweeping, often inaccurate characterizations, um, that so dominate the public discourse, you know, they're people. And again, you know, I think it would surprise people that, uh, sure, there are people who might be doing, uh, you know, trying to come to any developed country for, you might say, purely opportunistic reasons. But, but more often than not, they're people who didn't want to leave their home. situation. They got displaced from it, um, and usually in very compelling and desperate circumstances, and don't even really want to permanently reside in, in a host country. They're, they're just trying to escape something, uh, at least for the moment. Um, so, uh, again, I, I, it's sort of not, it's, it's analogous to I was happy in my home until something. Bad happened and then it didn't work anymore. And, and I had to move forward.

Daniel Rock: 35:02

Yeah.

Scott: 35:02

I think that's often what's going on. Um, and I just, I do wish as human beings, we would get beyond broad stroke characterizations of any groups of people and try more often to hear stories. You would do what you're doing. I mean, people telling their stories. That's where, where we learned the nuance. As you said, the conversation you had in the bar, the other fellow just hadn't thought of that perspective, but you know, uh, someone feeling unsafe in their home is actually far too common. Lucky for us, if we haven't experienced it, but don't ignore it or not be aware of it, that that's what motivates some people, right? Right,

Daniel Rock: 35:40

we, you know, just touching on that part, it's that whichever side of the spectrum politically you, you sit on, I think there's a real danger that we do get into that. Everyone in this bubble is like this and everyone in that bubble is like this and you're right, it's losing that humanity and it's really interesting when to kind of use a little bit of. An example, concealing enough of it should not be real. Um, in that you hear of people to say, Oh, you know, you know, I don't want undocumented people coming here. I don't want this. I don't want that. And when you say, well, so and so is undocumented. You want to send them home? Oh, not them.

Scott: 36:18

right, right, right. Yeah. And they're at the people. They know the people they know as people, a category or, or, or a sort of, uh, You know, a two dimensional, uh, image of, of some group of people that's, you know, it's to some level dehumanized. Well, that's easy to say. Well, I'm sorry, we can't help everybody. You know, but, but I agree with you. You start to look around and say, well, did you, you might not have realized, but someone who is involved in your life, who you care about, who you think is a very decent person, Also happens to be in a situation where they don't have a document. Well, yeah, well, no, no, no, no, they're, they're fine. They, they, they should be able to. So, yeah, I think it's that lack of personal connection, lack of being able, um, to relate to, um, individuals. Now the, the, the gift of my perspective, my career is even though I go in and look at programs, I do one on one interviews over the course of my career. I've done thousands upon thousands of one on one conversations with individuals. Tell me your story. Yeah. I have that perspective. So I don't look at the numbers and just see numbers. I have a great sense of the individuality, um, the heart, the soul that that's behind those numbers.

Daniel Rock: 37:29

I think, you know, whether or not he said it or not is somewhat debatable, but the, the Starling quote, which is, you know, the death of an individual is a tragedy, the death of a million is a statistic.

Scott: 37:39

Right.

Daniel Rock: 37:40

we run the risk of. Doing that in these examples, you make everything a statistic and it becomes very easy to dehumanize and depersonalize that whole experience. When actually, if you start, as you've done, you know, going out and listening to the stories and talking to the individuals, you humanize that. And then I think if more people were able to do that, or at least to people that have, they'd be able to humanize that whole experience of people in those situations and understand that they're just. People like us, they're not any different. They have the same wants and needs and desires, and they're just in a less privileged situation more often than not.

Scott: 38:16

That's right. And I think, you know, the challenge is, let's be honest, in a world that overwhelms us all, it's easier to have a two dimensional view of humanity, especially people who are different. It's a, it's a coping strategy. So I, I can see why it happens, but I think you and I would say the flip side is the reward reward. reward. of learning and getting to know people who are culturally or geographically or nationally different than you are. Um, if you can bridge that gap, the reward is immense.

Daniel Rock: 38:50

I agree. And I'll finish on just a small story from my life that kind of gave me a little bit of that perspective. I was, I want to say 14 and again, very lucky with my childhood background. And my parents took me on holiday to a place called the Gambia, which is a tiny little strip of land in West Africa. It's actually completely surrounded by Senegal. And, um, there was one of the staff, my local staff members that worked at the hotel was ran through the games hut where they let you out tennis rackets and, you know, footballs and stuff like that. And I got changed. It was probably 18, 19 young, young guy. And we were chatting. He said, Oh, we've got a football match tonight. If you want to come watch the football match. And again, my parents being incredibly trust me that, yeah, you can go with this person that you've met just at the hotel to a football stadium where we don't know where it is completely fine. so me and another kid from the hotel, we went to watch this football matches, giant stadium built by China that could have held 55, 000 people and probably had 300 people in it. And he said, Oh, do you want to see where I live? And literally it was a corrugated iron shack in a small village, kids playing football with a old ball that had no leather left on it. you get that perspective of that point in going with, and he was like one of the happiest people I'd ever met. And so it isn't about. Necessary to material items or things. It's the circumstances and the things you've done. And it was, you know, a wonderful experience and I had a great time. And I think that shaped a lot of my viewpoints as I've got older. And like, you have to push yourself outside of your bubble because if you only exist in your bubble and in your echo chamber, you're never going to learn or experience all that the world and life have to offer to you. You're just gonna have this very myopic view of the world that I don't think does anyone. You don't have to travel to do this. You can do this by just talking to people. You wouldn't normally talk to

Scott: 40:35

Well, you know, I,

Daniel Rock: 40:36

expand your, expand your circle of influence.

Scott: 40:39

I want to jump on that because my story, you know, your story, we, of course, we've acknowledged we had advantages, privileges, but we were able to travel at fairly young ages and have our eyes opened, but that was back when it literally required traveling, getting on a plane and flying somewhere. And in one of the disappointments of modern technology that we were talking about before, The podcast started is that you can actually easily connect and have conversations with people internationally, uh, through the internet. And yet, uh, people don't even take advantage of that. And we spend most of our time in silly little news feeds of garbage, you know, and guilty as charged, and we all get sucked into it because there's these very powerful algorithms

Daniel Rock: 41:25

Instagram or tick

Scott: 41:26

us. But,

Daniel Rock: 41:28

Mm hmm.

Scott: 41:39

that I was practicing my Cambodian with. It was simply a language app that simply connected you with a teacher in another country for a very small amount of money by U S standards. You could get a private tutorial lesson. But the thing that was great for me is like, I was. I was having conversations with regular people in some, you know, village in Cambodia who were teachers by day and as a side jumped on this platform to teach so that, you know, you don't have to have a lot of money. You, an internet connection could get you a conversation with someone halfway around the world if you, if you put a little effort into it.

Daniel Rock: 42:10

And I think that's exactly right. The internet is probably one of the best and worst things that's happened to society same boat. And I think if we spend less time on it, screaming into echo chambers as to why we hate something and more time and reaching out and connecting, I think it'd be a better place.

Scott: 42:26

Well, I mean, so this, this type of conversation that

Daniel Rock: 42:29

this podcast.

Scott: 42:31

right. Absolutely correct. So, um, it's, it's been a real pleasure conversing with you. I love what you're doing and we'll follow you with interest.

Daniel Rock: 42:40

Brilliant. Thank you so much, um, Scott. And again, Dr. Scott Allen, um, his book, which was released in March of 2024, um, is called across a bridge of fire, which is showing on screen right now. I will put a link to that in the show notes so everyone can do that. And again, thank you for tuning in to wherever I lay my hat. This has been a fantastic conversation. I've really enjoyed it. If you've got a story that you would like to share and share your perception of home and how things are for you, I'd love to hear from you. So please reach out. Um, my email address is just Dan at wherever I lay my hat. com, or you can visit the website, which is wherever I lay my hat. com and reach us out there. So thank you so much. And again, thank you so much. Scott, it's been a great pleasure.

Scott: 43:21

Pleasure is mine.