Daniel Rock: 0:06

Hello. Welcome to wherever I lay my hat, which is a podcast about home. today's guest is newly published English author Martina Grippo of, and she's the writer of Hello Flower, which you can find on Amazon. And I'll include some links to that in the show notes. that's her life story detailing the decade she spent with a covert narcissist and includes details of her expat life in Italy, France, and Nicaragua, as well as detailing her experiences with bereavement and cancer. Sometimes funny, often self deprecating, which I think is the Englishness and more often than not, brutally honest. I'm excited to have Martina on today to discuss what home means to her. So Martina again, thank you so much for joining us.

Martina: 0:44

Hi.

Daniel Rock: 0:45

love to hear a little bit sort of about you, a bit of background, kind of how you found home or not so far. And obviously a little bit about kind of your book and the story of your life would be great to hear.

Martina: 0:56

Okay, um, it's great to be here. Thank you so much for having me on and it's lovely to hear an English accent as well. I, um, was born in the north of England and raised in the south. So I still say nothing, but, um, the rest of my accent, you can pretty much, you know, point down to the south of England. I was lucky.

Daniel Rock: 1:18

is what we're saying.

Martina: 1:19

I don't know. I quite like going back, you know, sometimes the people are so wonderful in the north of England that it's just, you know, anyway. Um, I don't want to alienate any part of anyone here. So I, I was really, really lucky and I grew up in Bath. in the south, uh, southwest, beautiful, beautiful city, totally spoilt for choice. Um, my mum, who was from Ireland, uh, ensured that we often went back to Ireland. My dad died when I was two and a half, my birth father, if you like. Um, and I was raised by my stepfather, an amazing man, absolutely fantastic. But because of the Italian roots, we would often go back to Italy. Uh, to visit family and, you know, people over there. So travel, you know, in the days when travel was great, you know, we're talking a long time ago, where you'd get on a plane and it would be exciting and there would be boiled sweets in baskets and that kind of thing, you know, or you were taken up to the cockpit. Yes, that's how old I am. You know, that kind of stuff, it was just, it was fascinating. And I kind of, um, Took it naturally. You know, I wasn't afraid of getting on planes at a time when most of my classmates were going, you know, on holiday to the beach, Brighton, Blackpool, you know, those kind of places. It wasn't, or Cornwall, um, it wasn't really considered to be the thing to go abroad. It was very, very much at the beginning. And I think that sort of ignites something in you. I think when you find travel, when you're very young, that easy, you, and it certainly, it certainly, um, stops you being afraid. of new things. You know that you can do this kind of thing. You know that you can go there. I didn't go on skiing holidays or anything like that, but I was pretty much determined by the time I finished school, sort of, you know, and I got to around, uh, and after my A levels. that I wanted, really, really wanted to go and live in Italy. This was my be all and end all, which is what the book talks about.

Daniel Rock: 3:29

Okay.

Martina: 3:33

idea at that time, because you have loads of these ridiculous ideas, was to start up a creche. And I wanted to be speaking loads of languages and then come back to Bath and open up an international creche. That was my idea. Loved kids, loved travel, loved speaking languages, even though I wasn't, you know, there yet. And of course, life really does sort of twist it all around for you, doesn't it? And say, no, actually, this is what I'm going to do.

Daniel Rock: 3:59

very

Martina: 4:00

not coming back, you're not having kids, and, you know, this is how we're going to work it out for you.

Daniel Rock: 4:05

of

Martina: 4:05

Anyway, when I was in Rome

Daniel Rock: 4:07

we

Martina: 4:07

time, um,

Daniel Rock: 4:09

We

Martina: 4:10

supposed to be in Rome. I was actually supposed to go to France initially. That fell through and then,

Daniel Rock: 4:15

It's

Martina: 4:16

I

Daniel Rock: 4:16

loud. It's

Martina: 4:17

something like that, fate, destiny, or just bad luck made me end up in Rome and I, um, which was good because I was with an abusive Boyfriend in back in England, so it was good to get out, you know, and to do something different physically abusive And when I went to Rome it felt as though I had grown up again You know it

Daniel Rock: 4:42

Yeah.

Martina: 4:46

fun and that city in the late 80s Was phenomenal it was it's nothing like it is now You know, it's very sanitized and, and generic and that kind of thing. But oh my goodness, back then it was perfect stomping ground to fall in love. And along he came eventually, and I felt head over heels in love. This was the person I was going to be with for the rest of my life. Only, um, yes. So it, it was a very, very difficult relationship. No, that's not true at all. Sorry. I just started to go, started to say, I'm really sorry. I'm losing it. I was just thinking about him then, and then I thought, no, no. Initially, he was the be all and end all, and I felt that, uh, we had the most incredible lifestyle, or it seemed as though we had, you know, from the outside. And when you're young, And in your twenties, I mean, everything works, doesn't it? It doesn't really matter what you do or how you do it. And you believe so solidly that everything you're doing is right.

Daniel Rock: 5:55

we

Martina: 5:56

You know, you have,

Daniel Rock: 5:57

life experience to tell you otherwise. Right. And that's the thing is, if you've not experienced different things, you don't know whether this is normal or not normal because you're only operate within your own frame of reference and your own experiences, right? So that it's, you hear a lot of people in their twenties and stuff like, Oh, you know, I got this wrong. Well, of course you do. That's, that's life, right? You get things wrong. That's how you learn new things. You know, mistakes

Martina: 6:21

also why, it's also why when they, you know, I wouldn't want to go back there, but I would want to go back there knowing what I know now, you know, that old thing that everybody says, I mean, I, you know, I envy their, their youth and their looks and things like that. And you wish back then that you knew what you actually were like, but. I had a pretty good time. I can't complain. It was amazing, you know, and I really did. But even because I have this inbuilt thing in me that I, I had, I needed, I needed a degree. I needed a career path. I needed to find something. It's all very well flitting from part time job to part time job. But at some point, even if I didn't want to grow up, I wanted to, well, I described it in the book as I wanted to have choices. That's what I wanted.

Daniel Rock: 7:09

Okay. So, so, so,

Martina: 7:10

And he didn't want to come with me.

Daniel Rock: 7:12

so, so,

Martina: 7:12

Nah.

Daniel Rock: 7:12

so, so, so, so,

Martina: 7:13

He thought, no, this isn't for me. That's, that's, you know, too much like growing up. But at the time,

Daniel Rock: 7:20

so, so, so,

Martina: 7:21

figured that that was all my fault.

Daniel Rock: 7:22

so, so, so,

Martina: 7:23

So I thought, oh no,

Daniel Rock: 7:24

so,

Martina: 7:24

know, I've, I've got this person

Daniel Rock: 7:26

so,

Martina: 7:27

and I'm now deciding to go off and do a university degree and he's not coming with me. I've ruined us.

Daniel Rock: 7:32

so, so, so

Martina: 7:33

So, I buried my head in the sand for about 20 years and I went off, I was heartbroken. It was awful. You know, the first few years, and of course, you know, I'm going to say this to you, but as a woman, what you do as a female, you just think. I really screwed that up. I really messed that up. You know, that was my one chance at love and happiness

Daniel Rock: 7:56

like

Martina: 7:57

and it, you know, and it never, and it never

Daniel Rock: 7:59

not. It's not. So

Martina: 8:01

So I spent

Daniel Rock: 8:02

right

Martina: 8:02

next,

Daniel Rock: 8:03

I

Martina: 8:03

was living back in England.

Daniel Rock: 8:05

in the next,

Martina: 8:06

And I did what I think was expected of me.

Daniel Rock: 8:10

six

Martina: 8:10

married a,

Daniel Rock: 8:11

two,

Martina: 8:12

an okay ish

Daniel Rock: 8:13

remember the

Martina: 8:14

boy. I graduated. I got a reasonable job.

Daniel Rock: 8:18

just

Martina: 8:18

And I just remember painting once in, in this new, you know, new house that we bought and we were doing up and things like that. I remember painting the walls and my friend, one of my best friends was in Australia traveling around all day. Or Southeast Asia, and I could almost feel this, this feeling inside of real, is this it? You know, and I think when we, when we force ourselves to settle down, that's when things You know, the cracks start to appear

Daniel Rock: 8:50

Yeah. Yeah.

Martina: 9:01

really in the middle of Surrey, Greenbelt at 30. And now I look back and I'm like, Oh my God, I was only like 30, you know, 30. To something like that and I feel so young, you know, when I look back and I think of my age, but at the time I was just, uh, yeah, I think I, this is awful. I didn't do anything because, you know. Again, stick it out. Let's see what's going to happen. Lots of things happened, um, affairs on his side and infertility. So, the marriage came to an end and I was heartbroken because I wanted children more than anything.

Daniel Rock: 9:41

Yeah,

Martina: 9:41

But I remember that I was sorting out a room in that particular house and painting it for a lodger to move in, you know, getting ready. And I remember a friend of mine, he came around and he said to me,

Daniel Rock: 9:54

Yeah.

Martina: 10:01

rented out. He said, there is literally nothing stopping, stopping you. And I thought, yeah, actually,

Daniel Rock: 10:07

Yeah.

Martina: 10:14

um, learn that, you know, I got the TESOL, uh, teaching English to students with other languages. I started looking around at volunteering positions because for me, the be all and end all would be being in a place where there were children.

Daniel Rock: 10:29

Mm

Martina: 10:29

And originally I was thinking about going to the Burmese border. But my dad was, you know, my lovely dad, he was like, yeah, it's a bit dangerous at the moment. So, so Nicaragua was the other one, teaching.

Daniel Rock: 10:44

sound that much less dangerous in my head than that.

Martina: 10:50

Yeah, there's been a revolution and things like that. But I was just like, you know, and again, you're there and you're just thinking, Oh, I'll be all right. And I'll find a way and I'll, you know, and I'll make this happen. And much of everything within. Six months I had the qualification, I'd set up a thing that I was going to this cloud forest in the Nicaraguan, northern Nicaraguan mountains, and, um, yeah, there's a really, there's a really funny bit in the book, and I've been quoted it before in magazines and things like that. While I was hanging out at the chicken bus on my way up through this kind of jungle, you know, in the middle of nowhere, with petrol cans and live chickens and people staring and not understanding a word of the language, there was a part of me that was just going, God, I could have gone to bloody France or Spain. You know, why did I choose? Sorry to use this, this is very Italian expression, but, you know, why did I choose the arse end of nowhere to come and do this? And You talk about home. I don't know. There was a couple of things that happened while I was in Nicaragua. The very first evening I arrived, I put my hand into the breeze block building room that they showed me into with the wooden shutters and the mosquito net, and I went to turn the light on. Massive rookie mistake. No electricity, obviously.

Daniel Rock: 12:20

Yeah.

Martina: 12:20

And I sat on the bed and cried. And then I had a word with myself and just said, no, you've, you decided to come here, now you work it out. You, you, you know, give it a couple of weeks. You've got nobody to blame but yourself. So, you know, do it. I think I was there for five months. Initially, and then I got dysentery and I felt my best friend came to see me and then she flew home and I was homesick and I had a dream, I had a really vivid dream that night about going, you know, going back home and I dreamt I was walking down the high street in, you know, suburban Surrey and I met, you know, I could see other people that I knew then. I was like, Oh, hi, how are you? And then they were very dismissive, like, Oh yeah, I'm fine. You know, I've got, I've got stuff to do.

Daniel Rock: 13:09

I

Martina: 13:10

woke up the next morning going, no, you can't go back. Nobody's interested. Everybody's getting on with their own lives. You need to sort of create something here. So I did. I created a cottage industry with the coffee farmers.

Daniel Rock: 13:23

Well,

Martina: 13:24

that sort of led to, uh, uh, from, well, if I went over there, I think it was in

Daniel Rock: 13:30

what I

Martina: 13:32

uh, gosh, I can't remember the exact years, but I ran

Daniel Rock: 13:37

to thank

Martina: 13:37

own,

Daniel Rock: 13:38

for joining

Martina: 13:39

entirely ethical coffee business, I was the one who was shipping, I cut out the middle man

Daniel Rock: 13:43

that we

Martina: 13:44

and

Daniel Rock: 13:45

are

Martina: 13:45

to the farmers, built schools,

Daniel Rock: 13:47

to go

Martina: 13:48

did that sort of stuff, you know, so I was going, coming, going, coming backwards and forwards to Nicaragua for probably the best part of 10 years, I think,

Daniel Rock: 13:57

And I think if I look at that, and this is a theme that comes up quite often when I'm talking to people about this is that it's the what if moments, right? It's that do I decide to stay? Do I go? Do I not? Do I take a risk? Don't I take a risk? Not every decision, but most decisions are reversible. It doesn't, if it doesn't work, I can come home. If it doesn't work, I can do this,

Martina: 14:23

yeah.

Daniel Rock: 14:24

you know, I think people that travel or people that live overseas, I think like we have it. That's often the thing, right? That's the driving force. It's that well, if it doesn't work, I can, I can come back. But if I don't try, I'm gonna regret not trying. I'm gonna, there's gonna be something that's gonna eat away at me if I don't try the thing.

Martina: 14:42

Yeah, exactly that. And I think that you're in one camp or the other. You're in, either in the camp where, right, I'm going to stick this out, I'm going to make this happen, I'm going to do this, or there is another camp, it's like, oh my god, you know, I remember some people expressed an interest in coming over there, and they said, you know, how do you wash? And I was like, oh god. I can't explain to you this, you shouldn't come to a cloud forest, you know, and it was very, it was very sort of, they weren't friends of mine, they were people who were interested in volunteering and I thought, if those are your questions already, then there is something that I'm not sure I can, you know, I'm not sure it'd be a good idea for you to come and have a cold bucket shower in the middle of a cloud forest. I loved it. I mean, I really, really loved it. And I, you know, moved around quite a lot and met a lot of people. And I had some really lousy times,

Daniel Rock: 15:39

Mm

Martina: 15:39

difficult times. Anyway, that's a whole other conversation. I came back, um, And, but it was during my time, let's say, going backwards and forwards between Nicaragua that the, uh, what should we call him? Okay, well, the original big love of my life came back into my life, and

Daniel Rock: 16:04

uh,

Martina: 16:04

in Nicaragua

Daniel Rock: 16:06

reference reference

Martina: 16:07

you know, sorting out coffee and things like that, and this email came through.

Daniel Rock: 16:11

just

Martina: 16:12

And I, I think my legs just gave away

Daniel Rock: 16:15

uh, yeah. Yeah. What?

Martina: 16:16

I failed miserably in relationships. I wasn't, you know, happy and I couldn't, you know, internet dating had become this really huge thing. I just couldn't get my head around any of it. And I didn't like it. And

Daniel Rock: 16:30

Transcript.

Martina: 16:32

met somebody, but I wasn't in the right frame of mind for that person. So I probably lost him. He's probably.

Daniel Rock: 16:37

Transcript.

Martina: 16:39

break,

Daniel Rock: 16:40

So,

Martina: 16:43

a lot of baggage. Um, but I, I then I don't know. When I saw the email, I think my, I was, I looked at upon it as this is my opportunity now. This is my turn to be happy, to have what everybody else is talking about. I couldn't have been more wrong. I really couldn't.

Daniel Rock: 17:04

And I think that talks to that, you know, and I don't want to put, I'm definitely not in any kind of council or psychologist in this, but it, it's that the one that got away piece, you know, that whole, Oh, I get a second shot. I get a second chance. I get another go at this. And I think, you know, there's, there's always going to be temptation to that no matter what happens in

Martina: 17:23

And you know what? Yeah, but on that exact thing, the guy that I've met before, on the dating thing, where we were not in the right place to be with each other. I'm almost pleased it ended. Because if I had been with him and I had given it a go and then he'd come out of nowhere. Sorry, let me just put that a different way. And then he crawled out from under his rock and sent me an email. Okay, I would have dropped the other guy at a moment's notice. to go with him. So I'm almost, you know, pleased that it didn't happen that way round. Although exactly what you've just said, um, but it works so against me because that need to make it happen meant that I stuck it out for 11 years.

Daniel Rock: 18:13

Yeah.

Martina: 18:14

though it nearly destroyed me. So I mean, and then crikey, then we lived in quite a few countries. Oh, I forgot to tell you that all of this is happening. I sold my house back in England talking about home and where home is.

Daniel Rock: 18:27

this.

Martina: 18:28

know that this is, I love the idea of, of

Daniel Rock: 18:31

found

Martina: 18:32

you know, what is the idea of a home? But even when I came back from Nicaragua after I'd been there for a year, I lived with a French girl.

Daniel Rock: 18:38

word translation

Martina: 18:40

And we spoke in French all, all, all the time. She didn't speak English and my Spanish wasn't good enough at that point. And so we spoke in French all the time and I loved how patriotic she was. And, you know, and this is in the sound bonkers. I sold up my house in Surrey.

Daniel Rock: 18:56

chat forum? Uh

Martina: 19:02

And I just figured, you know, and I, and I fell in love with it, it was a converted stable. It was amazing. And it was probably the worst village I could have bought it in because it was in the middle of nowhere. But I

Daniel Rock: 19:13

uh the

Martina: 19:16

You know, this is the right thing to do. And I wanted to invest my money into solid bricks and mortar and not just, you know, Um, yeah, anyway, so we got back together and this time he was willing to move to the UK to be with me. So we moved, I found us a place, and, um, this was after a year of us being together and me going backwards and forwards to Italy. And he didn't have very much in Italy, which should have been a massive, walling sign. So I took on the responsibility of making sure that everything was going to be amazing for the two of us. And that meant finding a home, and that meant, um, Me being the only one working because, um, I, you know,

Daniel Rock: 20:05

who

Martina: 20:07

are very, very good narcissists

Daniel Rock: 20:08

colleague

Martina: 20:10

at making you feel as though

Daniel Rock: 20:13

ho.

Martina: 20:15

of their fault. Nothing is their fault. It's, you know, they're waterproof.

Daniel Rock: 20:20

Well, that's

Martina: 20:21

So

Daniel Rock: 20:21

problems with narcissists, that they actually believe that. It's not even that they don't necessarily, it's not even necessarily at that point, a fake thing that are putting on, they have that long held belief that, well, they're right. And everyone else has to that. And it's that whole

Martina: 20:37

yeah, do you know, yeah, that's a really tough one because, because I'm not correcting you. Okay. You're right. Thank you.

Daniel Rock: 20:48

No

Martina: 20:48

No, no, no. You do have an inherent belief that they're right, but that almost sounds, and you're probably not, as if they're being excused for the way that they are.

Daniel Rock: 20:59

not

Martina: 20:59

Oh, you're not.

Daniel Rock: 21:00

No,

Martina: 21:00

Okay,

Daniel Rock: 21:01

not excusing that at all. I think, you know, I think it doesn't matter that they think they're right, then it still needs to be a level of empathy to accept that other people's opinions matter. And they,

Martina: 21:12

it.

Daniel Rock: 21:13

they're not incapable of those feelings, right? And I think that's the thing. And I think is there's a, you know, you can get into the whole debate where, you know, with psychopaths, sociopath and empathy and the ability to feel it and present yourself as something that you're not. I think that just because you feel you feel something, Doesn't make it right. And certainly the impact you you are able to observe the impact your behavior is having on somebody else, regardless as

Martina: 21:41

Yeah.

Daniel Rock: 21:41

you think you're right or not. And if you're causing somebody else pain, you have to examine that. And I think that's where that doesn't happen. And that makes them. the intensely evil part of it. Yeah. Yeah.

Martina: 22:01

kinder and would share toys and things like that if you teach it properly, but, um, it's exactly what you said, that there's no accountability, but then add into that mix, because he was nasty. I mean, not initially, but he was so good at what he was doing. The manipulation was so vile and intense that I took everything on. This is my fault. This is entirely my fault. And all you had to do was say, look, I'm here for you. I've come all the way over. I've left my country. I'm here for you. And I was straight back to where I'd been 25 years earlier, you know, and

Daniel Rock: 22:43

Yes.

Martina: 22:44

I don't know, I, I,

Daniel Rock: 22:46

middle

Martina: 22:47

We were together for 11 years. We got married, stupidly. Um, and in that time, I did have breast cancer and went through chemo. And after that, I think he then became very fed up, even though I was a great wingy man, because this is a guy who probably in 11 years worked one.

Daniel Rock: 23:05

the Russian

Martina: 23:07

if you added all the little bits.

Daniel Rock: 23:08

Russian civilians are

Martina: 23:11

And

Daniel Rock: 23:11

shot

Martina: 23:12

the cancer, I mean, this is how good it was. We need to move back to Italy where the food is good for you. Sunshine is great. Yeah. No, he wanted to move back to Italy because he was fed up with England. He'd done England and

Daniel Rock: 23:30

Yeah.

Martina: 23:33

He, he just split it off and left me to pack up. And I mean, it beggars belief how many times. in the time that I was with him. It was me packing boxes and moving yet again, and again, and again. Since I've been with him, and I could say I'm not an authority on Italians, but I've pretty much lived in the South, in the Middle, and in the North. And I did keep moving because I was, you know,

Daniel Rock: 24:01

Not

Martina: 24:02

had to, to, to look for work or to, you know, Oh, it was,

Daniel Rock: 24:06

questions.

Martina: 24:06

in the book the way that, you know, once again, and there was even,

Daniel Rock: 24:10

I

Martina: 24:11

I won't spoil that, but

Daniel Rock: 24:12

Can you say

Martina: 24:14

don't think I've ever been afraid of moving. And then my dad died, my mum had already died, and then my dad died in 2020. And by now I was, you know, a wreck, you know, he, because they are a bit like, I don't know if you've ever read any of Harry Potter,

Daniel Rock: 24:30

Yeah.

Martina: 24:31

in Harry Potter, the, the dementors suck the energy

Daniel Rock: 24:34

Yeah.

Martina: 24:34

people.

Daniel Rock: 24:35

hmm.

Martina: 24:36

That's what they are. That's exactly what they are.

Daniel Rock: 24:39

what

Martina: 24:39

almost like a,

Daniel Rock: 24:40

trying

Martina: 24:41

must tell you, Daniel, I've got a sub stack page. Okay. You don't have to read anything or anything like that on it, but there is a,

Daniel Rock: 24:48

across

Martina: 24:49

there is a blog post I've written called take the photo.

Daniel Rock: 24:53

Yeah.

Martina: 25:07

for everything, um, who's sadly also gone. And. In that video, there is, it's only three minutes, three or four minutes or something like that. It shows exactly what a narcissist does to you, and it shows how I created a home. Okay, so there was this, you know, this, this sort of villa on its own. It was all tumbled down, hadn't been touched in 50 odd years, and I was so excited. I couldn't wait to get my hands on it. I couldn't wait to start doing things. And I came in. And you know, I did it. And in the video, it's as though somebody's turned the light back on in me when you see it in July of this year and you see how I've made a home. Now I'm going to give you the shocker. Okay. Well, so that was, I left him in, um, 2022. at the beginning of 2022. Um, I stayed here in the house because I have my really big dog and I, well, that was his big dog, he didn't want the dog. And I looked after him until um, he died last year. And I think I've pretty much got to the end of my tether generally the way of life here because it's not all it's cracked up to be by any stretch of the imagination.

Daniel Rock: 26:23

is right. I think that's everywhere you go. There's a compromise, right? And I think that's one of the things I want to explore with you on that, right? Is it's if it doesn't feel like home. All the things that would be a minor irritant somewhere else become a major irritant where you are.

Martina: 26:40

Well, the language, I speak the language, but people are out to get you here. literally out to get you. So in July, I decided that I wanted to sell up. Madness, that my, my house is beautiful. I have it exactly the way I wanted it. And I've always been okay about it. And I've run a little bed and breakfast out of here and everything else until about a month ago when I was in bed and somebody was drilling holes in the French window trying to get in.

Daniel Rock: 27:14

Yeah, that's not good. That's an instant way to not feel safe where you are.

Martina: 27:20

So I woke up to find an intruder. Just about to put a wire through the door and open the thing and everything changed for me. Everything in that instance. Before, I, you know, I thought, well, if I'm here for another year, you know, I'll see about what I'm doing. Now, I just want to be gone.

Daniel Rock: 27:45

And I understand that. I got burgled when I was in New Zealand and we fortunately weren't home. But that you never felt comfortable in that place again. And I think it's the violation as much anything else, because your home is supposed to be your safe place. And if you feel like someone can enter that place at any moment, then it's never gonna feel like home. So just kind

Martina: 28:06

I'm so

Daniel Rock: 28:06

yeah.

Martina: 28:10

I'd gone to bed ridiculously early, so when I heard the noise, the strange noise, I woke up and didn't just go straight back to sleep. And when I crept out to see, and I saw him on the other side, saw them on the other side, oh, the fear of something like that is so intense. That I, you know, I, I'm still quite scared of the dark a month on, um, and I, yeah, and what it does is it, it, there's, it's a chemical reaction that's just like, no, you know, people say to me, Oh my God, but you're beautiful. What is the point? What is the point? You know, I'd rather be living in a much smaller place. I can always go out. I know what I'm capable of. And that will lead on to your, how do you make a home?

Daniel Rock: 29:03

Yeah. And I think that's an interesting thing to touch on based on that. Right. And I think that I'd like to explore that a little bit. So one of the things that we sort of, we talked about every email very briefly is what's next and not necessarily knowing what's next because of this situation now that's happened, what do you feel, what are you looking for, I suppose, is the next question. What are you looking for in a home? What is, what is home going to mean to you going forward?

Martina: 29:26

Well, it's changed somewhat since the attempted break in because I was pretty fearless before. Now it's looking like a place where I would like to have neighbours. You know, people, probably in a place which is a little bit more, um, it doesn't have to be massively, you know, populated or anything like that, but I need to have people around me. That's one. The second one is I want a writing room. That's really what I want. I want to carry on writing because I love it. I absolutely love it. And I want to move to somewhere where I feel comfortable. And I think I might have found it. So I'm going to be moving to Wexford in Ireland.

Daniel Rock: 30:12

part of the world. Um,

Martina: 30:14

where I'm from originally. So, yeah.

Daniel Rock: 30:18

think that's just a really interesting kind of statement you've made around that because that talks to two different parts of right? One is the feeling that, you know, that I'm from here, this is my home. This is, you know, the comfort of the surroundings, you know? So I think when you. Spend a long time overseas that can get blurred because you know, one of the things I talk about quite often is England will always be home because that's in some way because I'm from there, but I'll never, I can't ever see myself moving back there in any way, shape or form. It will never be my home in terms of comfort feeling. I can absolutely see myself moving back to New Zealand as I get older and being retired there, because that's where that probably feels. You know, the most homely place to me. Um, I

Martina: 31:05

Why is that?

Daniel Rock: 31:07

it's because for me, I think it's because I grew up there, you know, in fact, you know, that sounds odd because I moved there when I was 22, but I spent 23 years of my most of my adult life. And I think that's when you actually do most of your growing up, you know,

Martina: 31:20

I couldn't agree more. Yeah.

Daniel Rock: 31:22

you know, you're that whole you talked about in your story. There's, you know, the things you do in your early twenties versus what you're doing, you know, and I'm in my mid to late forties now, and it's, it's very, very different in terms of what becomes important, what's a priority. And I think I spent, you know, most of my adult life living a long way away from family, you know, and regardless of relationships and, you know, add on families and things like that,

Martina: 31:46

Yeah.

Daniel Rock: 31:47

family, still your family. And I was a very long way away from mine. And so. You build your own, you know, in a lot of that, you know, so I built my own family friendship groups and people I'm very close with. I consider, you know, friends are to consider a brother, you know, and I love my sister, my real sister to bits and I love my mom and dad to bits. But that's also that's a family that I was given, which I'm very grateful for. But I've also built my own family, which is in New Zealand. So I think that's also why that is always a pull. To me

Martina: 32:13

Wow.

Daniel Rock: 32:15

But I also think that when you look, uh, kind of the options that you make some of the other things you talked about, and I think this does shaped by the experience you have. The physical nature of the home is important as well. And I think that does change. You know, I look what you're saying. I'll see. You were broken into and that was a violation and you've had some really, you know, not pleasant experiences in a home. So the physical things become more important in a lot of ways because it's well, these locks, these doors, this safety

Martina: 32:47

Yes.

Daniel Rock: 32:47

I build around

Martina: 32:48

Yeah.

Daniel Rock: 32:48

becomes much more

Martina: 32:49

all set it up? Okay. You all can see it? Okay. Oh my gosh. It's still on. The audio. It's still on. Can you see that? Oh my gosh.

Daniel Rock: 33:10

you feel creative, whether that's, know, having the right size TV on the wall to watch sport. If that's super important to you, it's that physical manifestation of what you need to feel safe and feel

Martina: 33:21

It's still on.

Daniel Rock: 33:22

and feel happy.

Martina: 33:24

But, but it's also, I mean, what I, what I found really gratifying is that I had a really good friend that came over and I just said, you know, she said, Oh, your home is so beautiful. She's been three or four times, you know, and, and, but then she looked at me and she said, But you'll make any way you go beautiful. And I just thought, actually, it's fine. You know, it's just things. If I've got a dozen plants, I'll be happy wherever I'm living. If I've got a little bit of a view where I can go out and walk to the beach, I will be happy and I can do all of that. And I think I found the right place. And I agree with you. I love England. You can take me out, but you can't take England out of me. And there are certain things that I will always, always do and be. And I feel a, I feel a real connection to that place. And I love going back and seeing my friends there, but I have some really wonderful people in Ireland, family.

Daniel Rock: 34:20

Yep.

Martina: 34:20

You know, not close family, but they've become incredibly close and incredibly supportive and I can't wait, you know, it's just so lovely to think and I know, oh my God, I can't tell you, Daniel, the idea of packing up and moving and trying to organise a bloody thing, relocation all the way across two countries, I'm just not relishing it at all. But I'll do it because the end is so incredible. So, yeah,

Daniel Rock: 34:50

I think that's a really good point. Like when my wife and I and our little daughter moved from New Zealand to the US, we looked at do we pack up a container? Do we bring stuff? We moved with seven suitcases and three carry ons. We moved,

Martina: 35:01

no.

Daniel Rock: 35:01

that's 20 years of life for me there, 13 for my wife. And we just decided we weren't going to bring anything. We'll bring clothes. We'll bring the basics. We'll bring a lot of stuff for baby. But for us, it was like, they're just material things all the material things for us, weren't the important thing. It was where we were going to end up and the people we were going to end up with and the environment that we were going to build and material things come and go. You know, there's some, some, there's absolutely some sentimental material things that we brought with us. The big things like a couch or a chair or a table, just

Martina: 35:32

yeah, no. But then, but then you see, I've got a very sentimental bureau belonging to my dad that is just like the centerpiece. So I'm kind of thinking, well, if I'm going to take that back, I might sort of take that table and chairs and things like that.

Daniel Rock: 35:46

I get

Martina: 35:47

So for having me on. It's been great.

Daniel Rock: 35:54

to make home. Um, well, thank you so much. I think that's probably a good time to wrap up. My team and I really appreciate you sharing your story. I think that's it's very inspiring in many ways because a lot of adversities that you faced and come out smiling and come out step telling a story and come out with a goal and desire to go forward with I think is super important. So again, thank you so much for your time. It's really very much appreciated.

Martina: 36:20

Okay,

Daniel Rock: 36:48

this is a podcast about people and about their stories. It's not me waffling on for an hour. It's about hearing other people's stories. So really do reach out, um, and let us know. We'd love to have you on again. Thank you so much, Martina.