Daniel Rock: 0:06

Hello and welcome to this week's episode of wherever I lay my hat, which is a podcast about home and the concept of home. I'm really excited to have this week's guest, Saskia Rock. We believe we're not related, even though there is a surnaming thing, we're pretty sure we're not related. But I do think it's an amusing coincidence to start off with. Her journey is, and I think the way that we described it, was more twisted than the Tokyo subway system. She's lived and worked in three countries on three different continents. A self described obsessive with all things Japanese culture. We're going to find out a lot more about her path to finding her place in the world and what Saskia thinks of as home. So welcome Saskia. And my first question and thank you for coming on is tell us a bit about your journey. I'm really interested to understand how you went from, and I'll get you to describe where those places were from traveling across those three continents.

Saskia Rock: 1:03

Okay. Hi, Dan. So happy to be here. And I do think we're related, that's why I reached out to you in the first place all those years ago. Cause you know, we have such a. Cool last name as well. So very happy to be here today. I love it that you chose this subject for your podcast as well. Cause home is such a, it's such a stretchable concept. So it's so different for everyone. So let me start with just this little self introduction. So my name is Saskia. I now live in the United States in California, but I was obviously not born here. So I was born in a little town in Flanders in Belgium 50 years ago this year. That was a big milestone for me. So I'm wearing this like vintage 1974 t shirt. So I was born in Flanders. For those of you who know, Belgium has. Three national languages already. So Dutch, Flemish, French, and German. So when you grow up, as I did in the Flemish part, so my native language was Flemish Dutch in school, you learn the other ones. You also learn English. So when, for me, it became time to. Choose what to do at university, what to study at university. It was like, okay, I love languages. I love culture. So what should I choose? I already speak four languages, right? And then I thought about a culture that impressed me. Very much since I was a little girl since I saw this series on TV called Oshin, which was about a little Japanese girl growing up during the war in Japan. So very harsh circumstances, but she ends up being the CEO of a supermarket. And so for me as a little girl, seeing this very different culture, hearing the language, because in, in Flanders we get, Subtitles. It's too expensive to dub everything right into Dutch. So we get subtitles. So you hear the language, you see these very different people, very different culture. And then seeing this so inspirational, voyage this career path of a little girl starting from nothing to being this very influential woman in Japan. So I was like, okay, I want to go and study Japanese culture and language. So that's what I did. And then when I graduated university, I went to Japan for the first time. That was back in 1997. So very long time ago. I spent one year in Japan. Then I came back to Belgium because it was okay. I've done I've sampled the culture. I loved it there, I also need to build a career. So I thought my career was in Belgium. And so for 10 years, I worked as an office manager Worked myself up to interim director at a company, but somehow my path, my career path was always connected to Japan. This company asked me to go to Japan to visit their clients to make sure that we had more sales in Japan. I kept on like translating things and interpreting sometimes. And it was always there. And then back in, in 2006, seven, I started playing Japanese drums as a hobby. And that spiraled into, playing gigs for money. And then I decided to, let's just try and see if we can make a a company out of this. So we did. And so for five years, me and my then partner we played professionally Japanese drums. Wow. Yeah. And and what happened then is like these companies where we were basically playing for fun, they started asking me, Oh, you have a background in Japanese culture. Can you please help our employees? Understand why their Japanese manager sometimes does things that they don't understand. So I got roped into teaching cross cultural communication and listening to, all these differences and frustrations on both sides. So I started doing that. And then as a business owner I realized that I was missing so much background in Finance and accounting. And so I decided to do an MBA. And yeah, right at that point I heard about this MBA in Tokyo, so I applied, they gave me a scholarship. And in 2013, I was off, I went to Tokyo and I was planning to stay there for the rest of my life. So I graduated from the MBA, I got a job in Japanese HR with one of the big four companies. And so I was there happily doing my thing. And then I met a man. It was a good thing. Honestly, it was a really good

Daniel Rock: 5:53

thing. It's amazing how many of these stories start or end with I met a man or I met a woman. It's literally, I think so many people's triggers as to why their best laid plans go off on a tangent and diverge somewhere.

Saskia Rock: 6:08

Yes, and the funny thing is, this man is a Japanese man. So you would think, okay, I'm now in the United States. So a lot of people think when I say this, Oh, is she married an American? And then, she moved with him to, to his hometown in the US. So that's not the case. My, my man is Japanese. He basically, he studied in the United States. He stayed most of his life in the United States. And so he happened to be in Japan just when I was there looking for friends, to go out with. And so we basically hit it off. And he said from the beginning said I know that you love it here in Japan, if you like me and if you plan on staying with me, then at one point we will have to go back to the United States. Or you will have to go with me to the United States because I never lived in the U S before. So this happened in 2018. He's in, he's in computer science software development. So of course, that's why we ended up here in San Francisco. So for the past six years, this is where I've lived. And my, Connection with Japan went away for a little while I was working in HR here in the U. S. with just, local companies and then Japan Consulting Office reached out to me It's actually a belgian company So it's so funny how these links keep coming back between where you've lived where you're from where you know Where you're going so A friend of mine that I graduated Japanese studies with in Belgium, he started this company almost 20 years ago. And so when I moved to the U. S., he said do you want to be a representative in the U. S.? And so that's what I'm doing right now. I am consulting, I'm coaching Americans are, people who live in the Americas as well as Japanese expats who are here to how to understand each other how to work better together. So I'm living the dream right now. I'm really happy,

Daniel Rock: 8:00

which is what it should all be about, right? It should be, I think in one of the things I'm going to explore with you in a little bit. Is that kind of how do we define home? How https: otter. ai What means to be home for us. And I think one of the things that I'm interested to ask you a little bit about is obviously you've lived in three different countries, very distinct cultures. It's, and I think, if I look at sometimes the UK, New Zealand, which is two of the kind of the three countries I've lived in, they're different, but culturally it's not a massive jump and then probably isn't a massive jump to the U S it's there's a, there's shifts, but I would imagine Belgium to Japan, to the U S is three quite big cultural shifts. What. Which do you consider any one of them to be more home than others? Or do you have a different field that they inspire a different feeling of home in you, I think would be a really interesting thing to understand.

Saskia Rock: 8:57

Yeah, so it's a difficult question. It's a loaded question, right? Because you don't want to upset people either. I think what feels most home to me, right now, if I had to choose, like, where do you want to live today? It would be a very difficult choice between Japan and the United States. I think Japan would still come first because I've, I've have so much interest in the culture. I still feel like I'm learning, every day. I just love being in it, but on the other hand, I've really loved working and living here in this small town in, in, in California. And my work is now here. It's not easy to answer that question. I think for me right now, in this point of my life, my home is where my husband is. Because he gives me that warm feeling of, I, I belong here. I'm, I feel at home with you. I feel safe with you. We are building a future together. So that for me is most of, you

Daniel Rock: 10:00

And it's a really interesting question because I get I was coincidentally, I went for a beer last night at a local bar near me and I was chatting to someone and they asked me a question about an expat because, I live in Birmingham, Alabama, but it's not a thriving expat place. A lot of people that live in Alabama stay in Alabama. I said, what, where do you, and we were talking about this podcast and it was like, how do expats, how do you feel like it's home? And it's a really interesting one for me because obviously I was born in the UK. I lived in the UK for. 22 years, almost 23. I moved like a month before my 23rd birthday to New Zealand and then stayed in New Zealand for almost exactly the same length of time. And then they were, but I have a British passport. I have a New Zealand passport.

Audio Only - All Participants: 10:39

But I

Daniel Rock: 10:40

don't think I'd ever call myself a New Zealander, but I would never go back to the UK to live, which is in its sounds very contradictory, and so like you mentioned, you Japan or the US and not. Belgium, but for me, like if it comes to sports teams, I support the English cricket team. I support the English football team or soccer team for our American viewers. But I don't consider, and I consider myself English or British, but Britain doesn't feel like home to me anymore. It's the part of my life I left behind, 20 odd years ago. And I would probably settle, similar to what you said, my settling, if I was to go back right now, where I want to live today is here, because it's where my wife is, it's where my little girl is, it's where my wife's family is. It's a lot easier for my family to get here from Europe than it is to get to New Zealand from Europe. This is a very logical and heartfelt decision, this is home. But I feel like my grounding probably, if I was going to say where did I see myself going back to maybe retire or,

Audio Only - All Participants: 11:44

die,

Daniel Rock: 11:45

that's a bit morbid, but would probably be New Zealand, because that is where I feel like I grew up. And I built that family, I built my own family there, friends and dependent networks. And so it's a little different. And I'm. Just to touch on sort of the things you said about, Japan would probably be number one and why do you think that is?

Saskia Rock: 12:06

I guess I so understand what you're saying right now, because I feel the same I would not choose to go back to Belgium. I think as you said I've left that behind. So Japan, yes, I built a network. I have friends, old colleagues, but you could say I, I have the same back in Belgium, but still, I think it's also being able to reinvent yourself when you're not where you were born. I'm not the same person that I was. And, when you go back people think about, they don't seem to notice the gap in between where you weren't there. They think of often, and especially like family or very old friends, they think of you as, the Saskia that they knew before you went away, but I'm not the same person anymore. I have a very different worldview. I think, For most expats, that's the case that our curiosity about the world is like huge compared to, to, like those people in Alabama who never left Alabama, for example, or, it's the same in Flanders, usually people don't really move very far. Also it's a small place, right? So both my older brother and sister, they live within 10 minutes of driving of my parents house, for example. So people stay very close. Local politics, local sports are very important. And then when I come back, with my stories about living in close to San Francisco or, meeting friends up in Tokyo they can't really get their head around that. And so that can, that's hard. Sometimes like a little bit of a lonely feeling because they listen to your stories, but they can't really interact. So I think, as a long term expat, you feel more at home where there are other expats as well. Or where you're, your new life is because you make an investment right to Be there to build a life in that new place. So you're obviously invested in, in, in doing that. So I think those are the things that I'm feeling right now.

Daniel Rock: 14:06

Oh, and I totally understand what you're saying. And if I think about, and I made the comment because it was in Alabama and I was in the bar last night. I grew up in South London. I grew up and I have a number of friends there who are still 10 minutes from where we went to school, 10 minutes from where we live. And and that's great. That's their comfortable home. But touching on the expat thing as well, that's a really interesting process. A lot of my friends that I made in New Zealand were also English. They were people that had moved from the UK to New Zealand. And a lot of that was because we played football or soccer together, and that's a very English sport and that's what you do, but you do, you tend to gravitate towards people with similar feelings, similar interests. And that, and one of the things I I find interesting is, and it's something I've wanted to explore a little bit as we go through this, is that, it's probably more of a psychological question than anything else, but is that because it keeps you feeling connected to the place that you are from, or the place that you wanted to go to, rather than completely cutting that cord, in that you mentioned being around expats, is that a comfort thing as much as anything else? Is it because it's maybe harder to integrate into the community? A new community of people who've never left there. They've got their groups of friends that they've had since they were at school. And that can be quite hard to break into. I'd love to hear your kind of experiences and thoughts on those based on the two different places that you've lived in as well.

Saskia Rock: 15:26

I think it's both. When I was in Japan, of course, speaking Japanese does help. Make connections with local people. If you don't know the local language, you're already at a disadvantage. So for me, it was easier to make local connections and I still, I still talk and interact with those people, on a daily basis. I, I have friends that I met in Japan. 30 years ago that I'm still in regular contact with, and I speak and I write Japanese with them. Then the other thing, yes, there is a level of contact. And I think that's a really good example of how you can find comfort in talking or, becoming friendly with other expats because they have similar experiences to you. And of course in Japan, yes, it's easy to talk English, right? Although English is not my native language, right? It's closer to my native Dutch and it's, the same kind of cultural background. So it's easier on a cultural and and a language, base as well to connect. So yes, if, if you want to be like just happy, go lucky, go out, you go out with your expat group. If if you feel like you really want to dive into local culture, you talk to your local friends. The other thing that you said that it might be difficult to find local friends who have their own set group of, friends or, people that they interact with. I feel that more here in the United States or in California, I should say, because the US is so big, right? I feel that more here in California than I did in Japan. And maybe that's one thing that maybe you haven't experienced, but being. A foreigner in Japan is of course a very different experience than being a foreigner here in the United States because here I don't stand out. In Japan I stand out. So it's a good and both a bad thing in the good sense like people are interested. In you, why did you come to Japan? What is your background? Oh, you speak Japanese. How wonderful. On the other hand, you get sometimes people who are just interested in your foreignness and not so much in the person that you are. But here in the U S I don't stand out. So people don't really notice that, that I'm not foreign. from here and even when I talk people think, oh, you must be from like the East coast or something because your accent is a little bit different. So I'm not obviously different. And so I've noticed that I do have some local friends, we, we've lived in the same apartment complex for six years. So I'm friendly with other people who've been here for a very long time. But also the deeper friendships are with either people I knew from before I moved to the United States or other expats who are here in the same area as well.

Daniel Rock: 18:06

Yeah. And I think that is somewhat dictatorial. And as you mentioned before the States is huge, right? And it's not one culture. It's 50 cultures. In fact, sometimes it's not even that it's way more than that, because,

Audio Only - All Participants: 18:18

you

Daniel Rock: 18:18

know, Birmingham, where I live is in Alabama is different from if I was to go and go to rural Alabama or, a different part, the culture is quite different. And I think that's an interesting one, because In California. No, I don't imagine being from overseas would stand out particularly. It does a little bit here because if I'm in a bar and I'm talking, the person next to me without fail will say, Oh, where are you from? And then half the time I say, or they'll say, are you Australian? Which is about the most offensive thing you can say to an Englishman who's lived in New Zealand for 20 years. So I always say that back to him. It's that's fine. So yeah, it's, That is an interesting one. But it is, I think it is that to touch on that. And again, it is that comfort and safety feeling a little bit, like you path of least resistance sometimes, right? It's it's easier for me to do this than it is. To go and really push myself into a, and you mentioned that if I want to, be open and let my hair down and natural, you went out with your expat friends, or if you want to dive into the culture, you went out with your Japanese friends. And that is, it's you don't have to try as much, right? You can, you feel like you could be yourself. You feel like you can just, you're not wondering if you're going to insult someone or do something wrong, or, it's, It is that comfort thing. Just spinning slightly on topic, but going back to something you said before, just around home is where your husband is, right? And that's

Audio Only - All Participants: 19:41

stuff

Daniel Rock: 19:42

really like to hear and expand on that a little bit around what you feel defines home for you. Obviously you've mentioned your husband, but there are a number of factors that go into home. And I think we, we mentioned before we started recording, you had some viewpoints on what is home. And so I'd be really interested to hear a little bit about that.

Saskia Rock: 20:01

Yeah, home is a place where you feel comfortable, where you feel safe, where you feel loved, right? So maybe like the, so the first year that we came here, we're still, We've been in the same little town for six years, but the first year we were in an in an apartment that was not a great environment. There was a lot of noise. And so I, during that year, it was very hard for me. First of all, it was the first year we were here, right? So I was trying to find my, my place looking for a job, trying to figure out like all those things that are so difficult in the United States, like health insurance and all of those things,

Daniel Rock: 20:45

buying a car. If you're, if you don't, buying a car, it's all

Saskia Rock: 20:50

of that. And then we were lucky because my husband has a history here, right? So that was a lucky thing. So that actually that noise and then having to deal with difficult neighbors really. Made me feel like I'm not, I don't feel home here. And so we decided to switch apartments and now this place that we've been in for five, five plus years now, this really feels like home. Even though like we have had like bigger apartments open up in the same complex, I'm like, do I really want to move? No, I really like it here, I think it's also a place that where you feel safe, where you get used to, like this place is actually a little bit small, but it's comfy. So why should we make the move and then get used to another place all over again? So I know it's, it, it sounds funny, like why wouldn't you choose to go to a three bedroom instead of a two bedroom, we feel good here. So

Daniel Rock: 21:46

yeah. So for you, home is as much, it's not really a place. It's the feeling. Yeah. And I think that's. And that's interesting because I think I mentioned earlier, like when I was talking to someone yesterday they were like home is where where you go to sleep, it's where you rest. And I said, and I understood why they were saying that, but then I challenged it a little bit. And I said is it, I travel for work a lot and I quite often sleep in different places. That doesn't make my home. Oh yeah, but it's where your base is. Okay. But where is my base? I've lived in the UK. I've lived in New Zealand. I live in the U S is home. That fleeting is it, can it be switched at the drop of a hat? Okay. I've moved. And I think what you said there really encapsulate that you live somewhere for a year and it never felt like home because you never felt comfortable. You never felt like you were bedded in. So therefore it was never home. And I think. I look at when we first moved here and we've only been in Birmingham for seven months or six and a half months, seven months. It's not very long, but for the first three months we lived here, we lived in a furnished apartment. It didn't have our stuff in it. So it's other people's belongings to the other people's utensils and plates. And so that was never home and it was never, ever felt like home and we're still renting now. But we've got. And again, it's a little smaller than we'd like. It's a two bedroom place. It's not a three bedroom place. My office doubles up as my daughter's bedroom at the moment. So it's not ideal, but this feels so much more like home because we've been able to, we're using our stuff. We've got the few belongings that we bought because we didn't bring a huge amount of stuff. We moved countries in suitcases. But the few belongings we have now have a place. And I think that's, it's that home is as much about things having their place. And it's not just you, but it's your things. It's my, my books on that bookshelf over there. And so therefore I know where they are and it feels familiar and it feels like home and it feels comfortable. And when I was having that conversation yesterday And he was like it's just where you live. And I said not necessarily, because if you don't feel comfortable where you live, it won't feel like home, and if you're, if your home doesn't feel safe, for whatever reason, you've got noisy neighbors that are difficult. You're living with someone who is abused, is abusive, or isn't making you feel safe or make things difficult for you, then that won't feel like home. And I think that's a really interesting concept for me. And part of the whole reason for this. Podcast really is to see what different people's opinions are. And I think one of the last or another question I just want to touch on that is obviously you mentioned your brother and sister live 10 minutes from your parents. And so one of the things that I find interesting about a lot of people who are expats is family because obviously your family, I'm assuming you don't have any, besides your husband, you don't have family in California. No. So has that changed your perception of family a little bit? Obviously you still have those blood ties to the people that you have at home, but do you feel like you've had to build new families? And does that change your perception of what is home because you've had to build your own network?

Saskia Rock: 24:57

I. I don't think it changed my perception. I think, the great thing about this day and age is that I'm on a zoom call with my parents and my brother and sometimes my sister every Sunday. So thinking back to the first time I was in Japan in 1997, 1998, we just had email, and I, if I wanted to call home, it would cost me like half my salary,

Daniel Rock: 25:23

yeah. And you had to get a phone card and dial the number of the phone card. Yes, oh my gosh.

Saskia Rock: 25:28

And that was so expensive. We I see them every Sunday, just my brother and my sister, they will go in person to my parents, right? And have the Sunday brunch or the afternoon coffee or, crepes or whatever. But, I see them too, just it's online. So I don't feel that removed from my family. I also don't think it has changed my idea about what family is. I'm a firm believer in that you, you build your own family, you build your own network. There are friends that I've known for 30 years, I think that I consider as family. There are some family members that I don't consider family so much, though, family is not for to me. It's not blood. It's the relationship that you have with people and you grow right together. Or if you don't, they cease to be family, maybe.

Daniel Rock: 26:20

Yeah. And I think what you said earlier. Is really descriptive of that when you live overseas and you don't spend time with people and I do, as someone of a very similar age to you, I remember having dial up internet and having to use phone cards and not being out of video calls and, spending years not actually seeing people like you'd see photos, there's one, but I've got Facebook was what, 2006, seven, which was like, the first time you really got to see faces. 10 years after, I moved to New Zealand in 2001. It's a long time between really having visual contact with people. But you do get, if you're not having that regular contact, and I'm very similar, I speak to my parents once or twice a week. And, I have a granddaughter now, who's a year old. And they want to see her probably a lot more than they want to see me now. But that's really interesting in terms of when you don't see people and you go back. So when I've gone back to visit the UK and met up with friends I went to school with, in my, and met new work with my early twenties. It is like they've paused you in time, right? They see you as you were 20 odd years ago, and I'm very fortunate now that I get to go back to the UK a few times a year because of my job and work and travel. And one of the things that I go and catch up with my friends from football. I used to go to Chelsea games when I was a season ticket holder and so I'll go and watch a game with them most times I get back if there's a game on. And it's really interesting because that dynamic of that relationship hasn't changed. And you do find yourself slipping back into almost being the person you were

Audio Only - All Participants: 27:56

when

Daniel Rock: 27:56

you left 20 odd years ago, even though you're quite different and your worldviews. And then my worldview is very different to what it was 25 years ago. So it is really interesting in seeing that pause in time and of what, how people see you. So that's a really interesting viewpoint, I think. Yeah,

Saskia Rock: 28:13

maybe one other thing that is that I want to say that builds up on what you just said is that the other thing is that because you live abroad, people are like, wow, what a life, right? They think everything is wonderful and everything is easy. And, you're so brave for doing all of that. But, or you're so lucky. But. They don't really want to know about all the stuff that goes behind, goes on behind that. Like when you, so when you start saying, Oh, but I had this thing happen, or I had this, they don't really want to know about it. So I found that also very interesting to see that with, some friends that are like, Oh, you're a superstar. And I'm, and when I go Oh no, it's not like that at all. Then. They switch off somehow.

Daniel Rock: 29:02

Yeah, I think that, and that's true, I think. And it's really interesting because there are people that will never understand why you would want to move countries. So why would you do that? And then there's people say, Oh, you're so brave. I wish I could do that. And you're like you could, it's not that complicated. And then the other part of that is when you do make decisions, people are like why did you do that? A lot of people go why would you move from the UK to New Zealand? Why would you move from New Zealand to Alabama? Why? It's not always that easy to articulate. For me, this move is easy because it's, where my wife and family and all of that stuff. It's a logical decision. New Zealand wasn't New Zealand was very similar to your story about, I met a girl in The UK who was from New Zealand and I went, Oh, let's give that a go. And I was meant to be there a year and 22 years later, I moved, even though that relationship had long gone by that point, it was that had become home and you fall in love with the place as much as you do with the people. And, but I do think, there's a lot of really interesting stuff to be said about what you surround yourself with is what it makes it feel like home. Thank you so much. I've really enjoyed this conversation. I think it's been a really good chat and thank you so much for sharing your story and your thoughts on home. So yes, thank you so much. And for those of you watching and listening, I'm really pleased to have you be part of the wherever I lay my hat podcast. and really excited to have you listen. If you'd love to be part of the podcast, please either go to the website, which is wherever I leave my hat. com. Or sorry, wherever I lay my hat. com, or you can email me at Dan at wherever I lay my hat. com. We'd love to have him more conversations and more stories from people. And again, Saskia, thank you so much for your time. It's been great to have you.

Saskia Rock: 30:42

Thank you, Dan. I really enjoyed this today. Good luck. Thank you.